Antti Grøhn

[JarleG]

Hi!
from Norway here so I hope its okay that I write in english here..

Anyways what I want help with is about my great-grandfather who was born in Finland and emigrated to Norway some years before 1900.
His name was Anders "Antti" Grøhn and is said to have been born in 1866 by this norwegian 1900 census http://digitalarkivet.uib.no/cgi-win/webcens.exe?slag=visbase&sidenr=14&filnamn=f00125&gardpostnr=214&personpostnr=1359&merk=1359#ovre . (for some reason his name is written E. Grønn here.. though I know it's him.) And after this he died 2 years afer my grandfather Aino Grøhn was born which was in 1911.

So his finnish family has been long lost to my family here in Norway but what I would like is more information about him and his parents and the place he came from (which I have no idea about).

Apparently his father was a newspaper-editor (or something like that) in what is said to me was a "right-wing" newspaper. This is also said to be the reason my great-grandfather Antti Grøhn moved to Norway because he was sort of a rebellious "left-wing" person (he work in the clothing-business when he lived in Norway anyways).

Well I'm hoping someone could help me with this it would be so so great! :)


- Jarle Grøhn

[Antti Järvenpää]

Some years ago published book "Keski-Karjalan Gröhnit"; Sirkka Gröhn; Gummerus 2000; ISBN 952-91-1890-2. I think that it is the most largest study about Gröhns in Finland, but it is sad to say, that in that book there isn't Anttti Gröhn birth 1866. These Gröhns oldies known ancestor is Kasper Gröhn, who was burgess 1620- in the city of Käkisalmi.

If you can give more details about this Antti Gröhn or his background, maybe some one find him. Excample can you tell in which part of Norway Antti Gröhns find first time, maybe you have old fotos from Finland or something else which help localize his roots in Finland.

[JarleG]

Ok, well I wouldn't really have excpected Antti Grøhn to be in any book as he probably moved early to Norway and I think kind of broke his ties to the old country. So the only thing I know is his father was working in a newspaper as said so maybe he is in the book?

Here is though a picture from where he was working in Norway a bit after the 1900 census (in the same place) which I linked in my first post.
http://familytrees.genopro.com/318186/jarleslekt/pictures/MysenSpinneri.JPG
So in this cloth-factory in the south-eastern county called Østfold in Norway he worked as a "clothing-colourer" and was one of the leaders of the factory.
About some years later he traveled to the city of Bergen (where I live) to the west-coast of Norway and met my great-grandmother (Inga Salhus). After that they are said to have moved back to Mysen in Østfold. And a few years later Antti Grøhn died somewhere in the south of Norway (i don't really know why he was there then..) by a trip there alone.

For some reason I haven't found other records of him besides the 1900 census. He isn't in the immigration-book for Mysen, Østfold, I haven't found record of him getting married, dying or even the birth of his 2 children. So it's like nothing works.. Really annoying hehe.:)

Other than all this my family don't really know anything more about him or where in Finland he came from, probably as he died early and maybe didn't feel to strong about talking too much about his early life as he probably had some trouble with his finnish family and such..

[Antti Järvenpää]

Quick browse through the Gröhn family book give quite many hit to clothing business. There is quite many taylors and many older finnish people remember clothing store Kuusinen in down town of Helsinki, which founder was Kalle Kuusinen (Gröhn). Although late Sirkka Gröhns Genealogy of the Gröhns family is extensive book with 3018 family tables (805 pages), it's not perfect.

Name form Grön is quite common in Finland and I think that earlier there was pretty many soldiers and artisans by that name. If name form is Gröhn, Grøhn Gröhning etc., intuition tell, that there might be something to do with burgess Casper Gröhn's unknown descendants.

There is two web sites, where might be some information: old newspapers http://digi.lib.helsinki.fi/sanomalehti/secure/main.html?language=en and emigrant register http://www.migrationinstitute.fi/

I look quickly both of these. In old newspaper there is plenty of mention about Gröhns, but no about newspaper man or reporter - nearist about booksellers. In emigrant register one can do only quick search without charge and that search give any match to Anders or A. - Gröhn or Grön.

[JarleG]

Yeah, I've found that newspaper site before and I searched there myself but I couldn't find anything useful too.

But about him being called E. Grønn in the 1900 census, do you know if it could be just 2 last names it's supposed to mean? Like E. as in maybe a patronymic last name + the Gröhn/Grøhn name? Then his father could have a name starting in E maybe.. (I don't know when they used patronymics in Finland though..) Or maybe something else..?

Maybe it could be something about Casper Gröhn you mentioned too.. though it doesn't help if there isn't anything more specific.

By the way do you know where this book of the Gröhn-family can be found or bought or how I could get it myself?


Thanks
- Jarle Grøhn

[Antti Järvenpää]

By the way do you know where this book of the Gröhn-family can be found or bought or how I could get it myself?



Publisher of that book is "Kasper Gröhnin sukuseura ry" and home place of that society is Kitee - small city in the eastern part of Finland and against Russian boarder. That is all what I know - maybe somenone else can help you. Anyway the book has been written in finnish.

Osaisiko joku auttaa Jarle Grøhniä: Onko Sirkka Gröhnin sukukirjasta "Keski-Karjalan Gröhnit" vielä painosta jäljellä ja kuka sitä mahdollisesti myy?

[Tapani Kovalaine]

Now I write in finnish, becouse this Anders Grön was born just in year 1866, but seems to be "persona non grata", if we are searching Anders Gröhn (1866) in Norway.
Oli aikaa varttitunti sulkemisaikaan ja katselin JoMassa juukalaisia mikrofilmikortteja. Syntyneistä löytyi 11.3.1866 Anders Grön, jonka isä oli Matts Grön ja äiti Maria Hirvonen s. 1830. Heillä oli lapset Anna Maria 1861 ja Henrik 1864-1868. Kolmas lapsi oli sitten Anders Grön, s. 11.3.1866. Tämä poika rokotettiin 1877 ja hän meni samana vuonna kasvattipojaksi Juuan Larinsaareen Heikki Lehikoisen ja vaimonsa Sofia Timosen perheeseen, josta oma Antti-poika (1853-1872) oli kuollut. Mutta, mutta. Anders Grön avioitui Juuassa 1891 ja asui vaimonsa kanssa Larinsaaressa vuonna 1899, johon mikrokortit sitten loppuivatkin!
Ensi kerralla etsin kenties oikeamman Anders Gröhnin! I hope that the next Anders Gröhn is the person who immigrate Norway...
Tapani

[Antti Järvenpää]

...... But about him being called E. Grønn in the 1900 census, do you know if it could be just 2 last names it's supposed to mean? Like E. as in maybe a patronymic last name + the Gröhn/Grøhn name? Then his father could have a name starting in E maybe.. (I don't know when they used patronymics in Finland though..) Or maybe something else..?.....

According to my experience name was whether with surname or patronymic. But always there can be exceptions, particularly late 18-hundred, when people start to take surnames. My quess is, that Anders Grøhn had two first name and possibly second one was same as father or fathers fathers or something like that.

[Antti Järvenpää]

Here is on example from Gröhns Genealogy:

Table 2766

Erik Grön b.15.7.1815 Tohmajärvi (father Victor Grön, mother Anna Karhu), bonde in Tohmajärvi Kemie by, d.19.1.1894, wife Stiina Laasonen b.21.3.1817 d.26.2.1876.

Childs:
Anna Grön b.16.11.1842, move out 1863 to St. Peterburg, d.19.1.1868 St. Peterburg, husband Matti Tietäväinen.
Johan Henrik Grön b.29.12.1844, shoemaker, move out 1858 to St. Peterburg, d.7.6.1872 St. Peterburg
Karl Grön, b.5.6.1846, bonde in Tohmajärvi
Maria Grön b.21.5.1849, move out 1858 to St. Peterburg, d.11.2.1915 St. Peterburg
Jakob Grön b.11.12.1852 d.29.9.1863
Gustava Wilhelmina Grön b.11.4.1855 d.27.6.1857
Kristina Wilhelmina Grön b.9.5.1858 d.27.9.1863
Helena Grön b.4.12.1864, husband Paavo Muhonen

As well as this Erik is only Erik Grön/Gröhn what I find in that genealogy, this is good example, because here you can see, that pretty many in that area moved out to St. Petersburg. So your Anders might be born in St. Petersburg too, although he had Finnish nationality.

[JarleG]

Publisher of that book is "Kasper Gröhnin sukuseura ry" and home place of that society is Kitee - small city in the eastern part of Finland and against Russian boarder. That is all what I know - maybe somenone else can help you. Anyway the book has been written in finnish.

Ok, though how did you get to read the book then?

Also I can't understand most of what you have written in finnish.. but I see that you have found more stuff maybe relating to the family anyways.

[JarleG]

Hi again!

It has been some time since I posted this entry here, but now I think I have found some good information. As I searched the Historical Newspaper Library here http://digi.lib.helsinki.fi/sanomalehti/ (http://digi.lib.helsinki.fi/sanomalehti), I have now found some interesting things.

In finnish-language Suomalainen Wirallinen Lehti no 11, 15.05.1891 (http://digi.lib.helsinki.fi/sanomalehti/secure/showPage.html?conversationId=11&action=entryPage&id=417090&pageFrame_currPage=4) it mentions "wärjäri Antti Gröhnin", the same thing is in the newspaper for the 2 next days also.

Also in swedish-language Finlands Allmänna Tidning no 199, 29.08.1893 (http://digi.lib.helsinki.fi/sanomalehti/secure/showPage.html?conversationId=17&action=entryPage&id=508263&pageFrame_currPage=3) I think it is about the same thing, and mentions "färgaren Anders Gröhn", also here it is in the newspaper for the 2 next days.

The full article in the swedish newspaper is:
"Häradsretten i Idensalmi sockens tingslag har i dag dödat de inteckningar uti gården och tomten n:o 17 i Iisalmi stad, som fästselts den 24 Mars 1882 Finska storstatens pensionskasia till säkerhet för 3000 finska mark samt den 5 Oktober 1885 herrar Salomon Schönlank & Söhne i Berlin till säkerhet för 3200 Reichsmark, hwilka belopp grundade sig å af färgaren Anders Gröhn uthändigade förskrifningar. Iisalmi, den 25 Nowember 1891.
På häradsrättens wägnar:
5111(3-2) Östling"


I don't understand finnish at all, but I understand swedish fine, however I can't quite understand what this article means..

I see however that it takes place in the town of Iisalmi/Idensalmi. This town is coincidentally where "Anders Grön" is born 24.9.1867 (http://www.familysearch.org/eng/search/IGI/family_group_record.asp?familyid=356001944&indi_id=100408823211&lds=1&region=7&frompage=99). His parents where Anders Grön and Mina Moninen.

This all fits so good and corresponds perfectly with what I knew about "my" Anders "Antti" Grøhn before I found all this (see above on this page), that it has to be the same person.


To summarize then, Anders Grøhn was born 24.9.1867 in Iisalmi, Finland to parents Anders Grön and Mina Moninen. Most likely between 1893 and (1897?) 1900 he arrived in the county Østfold in Norway. He worked as a tailor (coloring) in a factory both before and after he came to Norway. And so on..

So some feedback on how this sounds would be great. So now I am of course interested in Anders' parents, Anders and Mina and their history. Since I don't know finnish I found that it was problematic for me to find church records and such myself, so if I could get some help it would be super-great!


-Jarle Grøhn

[Tuula Cu]

Here is a rough translation of what was said in the newspaper articles you had found:

- the house and land area 17 of dyer Antti Gröhn in Iisalmi (köping; the area that grew into town) was to be sold in auction on 1.6.1891 because Antti was in debt to merchant Salomo Schönland.

- the same contents were in the Swedish language but different merchants...

[Tapani Kovalaine]

One picture from Iisalmi and family Gröhn (nro 17) in a year 1880:

http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=488820

... and then digipicture from Juuka in a year 1857, when Anders Gröhn (lowiest person in this page) is moving to Kuopio:

http://www.digiarkisto.org/sshy/kirjat/Kirkonkirjat/juuka/rippikirja_1850-1860_tk1404-1405/320.htm

[Tapani Kovalaine]

Johan Grön b. 1811, d. 18.4.1860 Juuka, Paalasmaa
wife Margreta Timonen b. 1805
son Anders Grön b. 15.7.1839 Juuka, Paalasmaa
moved to Kuopio 23.2.1857 with Erik Grön (son of Matts Grön) b. 1839, into same address
married in Kuopio 5.11.1863
wife Wilhelmina Mömmö b. 10.10.1833

Anders and Wilhelmina moved to Iisalmi 26.11.1864
they were living in Iisalmi year 1900 (data stopped this year in archive)
and their last name was year 1900 Gröhn, they had 9 children
their son Anders was born 24.9.1867 Iisalmi, qvarter/place number 17

Anders Gröhn junior moved from Iisalmi to Helsinki 21.7.1899

http://www.digiarkisto.org/sshy/kirjat/Kirkonkirjat/juuka/rippikirja_1850-1860_tk1404-1405/320.htm

[JarleG]

Thank you for the great help!

If Anders Gröhn ("junior") moved from Iisalmi to Helsinki 21.7.1899, this would eventually mean that he was just shortly in Helsinki before moving on again to Norway. He is as said (if it is the same person) found in the 1900 census of Norway which was held 3.12.1900.

So, if there exist any such records of someone travelling out of Finland to in this example Norway, it would make it 100% sure that these two are the same person. It would only be a 1 1/2 year gap to search too so it shouldn't be very hard to find if there is such records available.

Other records that can help would be nice too of course.

[JarleG]

Hello again. It is a long time since this thread was last used, but I just wanted to note, particularly to those who very kindly helped me here earlier, that I have now confirmed that the last Antti discussed here must be identical to the Antti in Norway.

The conclusive evidence came in the Norwegian 1910 census which was released to the public only a few days ago (100 year restriction). In it, "Anders Grøn" from Finland was reported to have been born on 24.9.1867. (http://da.digitalarkivet.no/ft/person/pf01036608000989/)

Nevertheless, many interesting things can be found about värjäri Antti Gröhn in Finnish newspapers, although I am uncertain if all of them are of the same Antti. What must surely be the correct Antti however, is the articles in September 1899 in Helsinki where he has opened a new business, such as this:

Härmed får jag äran tillkännagifva för allmänheten, att jag efter en långvarig i hemlandet och under många år i utlandet vunnen erfarenhet öppnat en Skönfärgnings- och Kemisk Tvättinrättning härstädes och ber jag att genom godt och omsorgsfullt arbete och billiga priser tillvinna mig den ärade allmänhetens förtroende. Högaktningsfullt
Antti Gröhn.
Helsingfors Nya Skönfärgnings och Kemiska Tvättinrättning mottager till färgning Herr- och Fruntimmmerskläder i vackra moderna, hållbara färger, till rengöring, för fläckuttagning och andra till yrket hörande arbeten. Obs.! Kläderna färgas utan att uppsprättas. Fabriken är belägen Sibyllegatan n:o 2. Mottagningsställe: Helsingfors Kravattfabriks försäljingsbutik, Alexandersgatan n:o 14, midtemot senaten. (http://digi.lib.helsinki.fi/sanomalehti/secure/showPage.html?conversationId=5&action=entryPage&id=529614&pageFrame_currPage=3)

He says here that he has been abroad for many years, and it could be that it is the same Antti (värjari Anders Grön) that arrives in Viipuri from Pietari in 16.7.1892. It might be interesting to learn what the entries in the comment means (such as "SIVU: 95"), if it is not just some uninteresting registry data. I could not find the original record in the link however. (http://hiski.genealogia.fi/hiski?en+t9041695)

I should also like to hear some views on the selling of the property 17 in Iisalmi, regarding if it is actually instead Antti's father rather than Antti jr. (as I insinuated earlier), which may be more likely (as the father was arguably still the head of the 17 household at that time). Regardless, this might be what led Antti jr. to travel abroad, possibly to Russia first, and finally Norway.

I also want to ask about what a few Finnish passages in newspapers mean (I could not translate vital words, and the spelling I present here might be slightly incorrect):

Cartoja tampattavaksi ottaa vastaan värjäri A. Gröhn. Iisalmen kauppalassa. (24.8.1889) (http://digi.lib.helsinki.fi/sanomalehti/secure/showPage.html?conversationId=6&action=entryPage&id=449278&pageFrame_currPage=1)

and

Tonnti n:o 17. Kart.-om. [Kartanonomistaja] J. Butkosen lesti 4, värjäri Antti Gröhn 10. (22.1.1898) (did Antti buy back his property here?) (http://digi.lib.helsinki.fi/sanomalehti/secure/showPage.html?conversationId=4&action=entryPage&id=588678&pageFrame_currPage=3)

Lastly, in the last post in this forum from before, it is also said that the Gröhn family were living in Iisalmi still in 1900, and that they had 9 children. Although I have been able to find the Gröhn family in older church records, I have not found them after 1880. I wonder if someone could point me to where exactly this was found, and if it gives any more information about names of children etc. (I have only found the names of two of Antti's siblings, August (1866) and Johanna (1871), although I don't know anything more about them.)

Kind regards,