Duwall suku

[petergmdale]

I’m looking for information on the background of Author/Auctor Duvel/Duwal who was a Merchant in Turku. Auctor was born approximately 1590 and was a successful Merchant in Turku. However, he died penniless in Oulu and was buried in Turku on May 10, 1636. I’m a descendent of his daughter Helena (Elin) Duvel-Trumbel (the name of her step-father) who married Isaac Hansson Sinius.

I’ve read the literature online that discusses Auctor’s potential ethnicity as being Scottish, German or Dutch.

I’m wondering if there is any evidence that he is a relative/child of Albert MacDougall who was a Bailiff and died in Sweden in 1641 at approximately 100 years of age. He had 9 sons who appear to have all entered the Swedish military. From Albert the Swedish Duwall noble family descends. Any thoughts on this or other theories as to Auctor’s background? Thank you.

Regards,

Pete

**In Finnish**

Etsin tietoa taustalla Author/Auctor Duvel/Duwal joka oli kauppias Turussa. Auctor syntyi noin 1590 ja oli menestyvä kauppias Turussa. Hän kuitenkin kuoli rahaton Oulussa ja hänet haudattiin Turun 10. toukokuuta 1636. Olen jälkeläinen hänen tyttärensä Helenan (Elin) Duvel-Trumbel (nimi hänen askel-isä), joka nai Isaac Hansson Sinius.

Olen lukenut kirjallisuutta online joka käsittelee Auctor mahdollisuuksia etnisyys olevan Skotlannin, saksalainen tai hollantilainen.

Olen miettinyt, jos on näyttöä siitä, että hän on suhteellinen / lapsi Albert MacDougall joka oli voudin ja kuoli Ruotsissa vuonna 1641 noin 100 vuotta täyttäneitä. Hänellä oli 9 poikaa, jotka näyttävät kaikki tuli Ruotsin armeijaan. Albert Ruotsin Duwall aatelissuvun laskeutuu. Ajatuksia tästä tai muista hypoteesia Auctor tausta? Kiitos.

Terveisin,

Pete

[Jouni Kaleva]

Hi

I have no information to confirm this theory, but it does sound valid.

I give a quotation from an article dating 1884:

Otto Donner: A brief sketch of the scottish families in Finland and Sweden. Helsingfors 1884:

Another family, many members of whom have acquired renown in the career of arms, is the MacDougall. Albrecht MacDougall of Mackerston, born in Scotland 1541, came to Sweden 1594, became collector of taxes to Queen Christina 1626, died 1646. His son Maurritz became colonel and was naturalized by the name of Duvall 1638, and his son James fell as lieutenant at Czenstochova in Poland 1705. James, the second son of Albrecht MacDougall, born 1589, entered the Swedish service 1607, was in 1630 colonel of two regiments of German foot-soldiers, then general of a Swedish army in Germany and was shot at Grossglogau 1634. The title of baron promised to him by Gustavus Adolphus was afterwards bestoved upon his two sons: Jacob, born 1625, lieutenant-colonel and afterwards governor of Österbotten 1669 (whose son Jacob served under Carl XII as major in the Wiborg, and afterwards as lieutenant-colonel in the Åbo cavalry), and Gustaf, born 1630, lord of the bedchamber to Queen Christine and Karl X, minister in Denmark 1656, speaker of the nobility at the diet at Upsala 1675. He was sent in 1658 to England to offer condolence upon the death of Cromwell. His son Axel, who took again the name of MacDougall, born 1667, was body-guard to Karl XII, was present at the battle of Bender, and became major-general 1722. Numerous members of the family have since been officers, some in the Swedish, others in the Finnish armies. John Didrik Duvall, born 1723, was speaker for the nobility at the diet of 1786, and was made lieutenant general the same year. The family is still extant in Sweden.I’m looking for information on the background of Author/Auctor Duvel/Duwal who was a Merchant in Turku. Auctor was born approximately 1590 and was a successful Merchant in Turku. However, he died penniless in Oulu and was buried in Turku on May 10, 1636. I’m a descendent of his daughter Helena (Elin) Duvel-Trumbel (the name of her step-father) who married Isaac Hansson Sinius.

I’ve read the literature online that discusses Auctor’s potential ethnicity as being Scottish, German or Dutch.

I’m wondering if there is any evidence that he is a relative/child of Albert MacDougall who was a Bailiff and died in Sweden in 1641 at approximately 100 years of age. He had 9 sons who appear to have all entered the Swedish military. From Albert the Swedish Duwall noble family descends. Any thoughts on this or other theories as to Auctor’s background? Thank you.

Regards,

Pete

[tkukkonen]

100 years later than the study of Donner we have a sceptic statement. The 1st citation below refers to an arcticle in Genos, issue 54 year 1983 pages 81 to 100. My translation.

Original title: Suomen saksalaiset kauppiassuvut Hypoteeseja, luonnoksia Valtiot. maisteri Aarno Tertti, Espoo
http://www.genealogia.fi/genos/54/54_81.htm

(German merchant families in Finland, Hypotheses, drafts. By Aarno Tertti)

On similar grounds one must critisize the assumption that another merchant in Turku (Åbo) of the 1600s, Autor Duvel were of Scottish origin. The name undoubtedly is Low German adaptation and a form of Teufel (literally devil), while Autor (Auctor) is an old, medieval given name that was popular in Braunschweig. In the Baltic area, the name Duvel has appeared already on the 1st half of the 16th century, among other places, in Riga and Reval (currently Tallinn).

And another note (this is a explanatory note of the above said article).

Möller page 57. The connection between Duvel of Turku with the Swedish noble house Duwall (MacDougall) does not seem justified. Th.A. Fisher: The Scots in Sweden (1907, cited as a source) does not seem to be fully trustworthy in its details.

[Jouni Kaleva]

100 years later than the study of Donner we have a sceptic statement. The 1st citation below refers to an arcticle in Genos, issue 54 year 1983 pages 81 to 100. My translation.


Thank you for this information, which was news to me!

Author Duwel´s widow, Elisabeth Platz married next around 1637 a Jacob Persson Trumbel, mechant in Turku (=Åbo). Trumbel family is stated to be of Scots origin in this here article: Genos 68(1997), s. 171-172, 191
which of course doesn´t implicate anything about Duwel origins.

[petergmdale]

Many thanks for the replies. I have read both the articles you refer to. Unfortunately they do not provide much by the way of corroborative evidence to substantiate their conclusions either that Duvall was of German origin or that he was unrelated to the Swedish Duwall family. Hopefully, we will uncover more information in the future with additional research. Others suggest that he had a Dutch connection which, of course, may be anecdotally corroborated by his marriage to Platz who is also often identified as of Dutch origin.

Regards,

Pete

[petergmdale]

Greetings, I have been reading about Albert MacDougall and his 9 sons. It would appear from the literature that all known sons entered Swedish military service. Does anyone know anything about the Duwall family of Sweden/Finland and whether any of Albert’s sons did not, in fact, enter military service? I’m still trying to determine whether Author Duvall was possibly a son of Albert Duwall. I have considered the argument that he may have been of German descent and that his name is a bastardization of Teufel. However, there appears to me to be no evidence other than pure speculation that he was German. I also have read that there was a commercial connection with Holland. This appears to be more compelling given his marriage to the Platz family who very well may have been Dutch. I’d be very appreciate of any information, thoughts, further speculation, etc. regarding Author and the Turku Duvall family. Thank you. Regards, Pete

[Helena V.]

Veli-Pekka Toropainen writes in his article "Skottirotta ja Ruotsin koira - Turun ulkomaalainen porvaristo vuosina 1600-1660" (Scottish rat and Swedish dog - foreign merchants in Turku during 1600-1660), Genos 74 (2003), p. 199-215 (not yet digitalized)

p. 208: (in English)
Duvall, Author, German. Merchant 1625. Buried 10.5.1636. Spouse Elisabet Hansdr. Platz, German. Wife's 2. spouse Jacob Perss. Trumbell, German*.
- ref. 71: Carpelan 1809:155; Hausen 1901:125.

p. 211: (in English)
Platz, Hans, German. Mayor 1616-1620. Deputy 1617. Died 1620. Spouse Brita Henriksdr. Storck.
- ref. 125: von Bonsdorff 1892-1894:202; Carpelan 1890: 155.

p. 212: (in English)
Trumbell, Jacob Persson, Scottish*. Merchant 8.7.1637. Denounced his merchant rights 4.1.1648 in order to move to Oulu. Spouse Elisabet Hansdr. Platz, German. Wife's 1. spouse Arthur Duval, German.
- ref. 153: Nyholm 1977:171-172.

* Unfortunately Toropainen contradicts himself in stating Jacob Trumbell to be both German and Scottish.

Furthermore, his references concerning the first two here quoted merchants are rather ancient...

Best regards,
Helena V.

[petergmdale]

Greetings,

The following is an e-mail that I received from Mario Prudon (m.prudon*home.nl), a professional genealogist and researcher in the Netherlands in response to my inquiry of him regarding how to conduct research with respect to the Platz family, including Kort Platz, in the Netherlands:

“I am still performing genealogical research, mostly in the Dutch provinces of Overijssel and Gelderland. The answers to your questions have to be found in the Regionaal Archief Nijmegen and although Nijmegen is in Gelderland, it is a bit far away from my residence, Deventer. So, my advice is that you try the genealogical correspondent in Nijmegen first. Here is a direct link to the information:

(http://www2.nijmegen.nl/wonen/oudste_stad/Archief/producten_en_diensten/archiefonderzoek (http://www2.nijmegen.nl/wonen/oudste_stad/Archief/producten_en_diensten/archiefonderzoek))

If it does not work out right, you can always contact me again.

Just like Eric Ruijssenaars [another Dutch professional genealogist who referred me to Mr. Prudon] wrote, it might be difficult research because of the period when your ancestors lived here. Apart from that, are you sure that they lived in Nijmegen? Because Hans and Kort and Platz are actually German names.

I consulted some books on Nijmegen that I have at home including a List of Civilians in Nijmegen 1592-1810 and the Inventory on the Archives of the Nijmegen Confraternity 1330-1787. There are no name-bearers Platz in those books. However, in the Inventory on the Archives of the Orphanages I did read the name of a Conraet Plass in the years 1619-1621. Maybe he is your Kort Platz.”

I’m uncertain whether Hans Platz’s brother, who apparently lived in Nijmegen, was named Konrad or Kort. I welcome any thoughts that anyone may have on the reference to Conraet Plass above. Kiitos.

Cheers,

Pete

[Kimmo Kemppainen]

This happens to be a question that I'm personally interested in. My current conviction is that Author Duvel came from the Low Countries. This is for two reasons: firstly, his inheritance was brought from Holland after his death and secondly, Author obviously was a Dutch name in the 17th century. I can't find the source right now, but if I remember correctly, there was a Dutch merchant by the name of Author Lütkens who had some business in Turku (where Author Duvel lived).

If Author was a rare name, maybe the two Authors were related.

By the way, Author Duvel died in Turku, not in Oulu. His burial record is still extant and I have visited his grave in the Turku Cathedral myself. It is unmarked.

Author Duvel had six children five of whom I have been able to locate.
Kimmo Kemppainen



Greetings, I have been reading about Albert MacDougall and his 9 sons. It would appear from the literature that all known sons entered Swedish military service. Does anyone know anything about the Duwall family of Sweden/Finland and whether any of Albert’s sons did not, in fact, enter military service? I’m still trying to determine whether Author Duvall was possibly a son of Albert Duwall. I have considered the argument that he may have been of German descent and that his name is a bastardization of Teufel. However, there appears to me to be no evidence other than pure speculation that he was German. I also have read that there was a commercial connection with Holland. This appears to be more compelling given his marriage to the Platz family who very well may have been Dutch. I’d be very appreciate of any information, thoughts, further speculation, etc. regarding Author and the Turku Duvall family. Thank you. Regards, Pete

[Kimmo Kemppainen]

The family of Hans Platz also requires further research. "Åbo i genealogiskt hänseende" says that Hans Platz's second wife was Brita Henriksdotter Stork, who was the widow of Henrik Schaefer (Platz's first wife is unknown). However, "Turun Kaupungin Historia" states that Hans Platz was married to Anna Hansdotter, widow of Henrik Schaefer!

There must be something very wrong with this family. Most books cite very old books without reviewing the sources.
Kimmo Kemppainen

[Kimmo Kemppainen]

Now I found my source. It's Veli Pekka Toropainen's article "Turun porvariston keskinäiset verkostot vuosina 1549 - 1660" in the yearbook of the Finnish Genealogical society no 47 page 138.

I previously said that the inheritance brought from Holland was that of Author Duvel. I was wrong, it was that of Konrad Platz who had died in Nimwogen (=Nimwegen) in 1628.

A business deal is also mentioned on the same page. Author Lütkens from Osen is mentioned in this context.

Thus, I have no direct evidence for Author Duvel's being Dutch. Anyway, I have seen the inventory of Author Duvel's belongings made after his death. He was some poor man in debt when he died!
Kimmo Kemppainen



This happens to be a question that I'm personally interested in. My current conviction is that Author Duvel came from the Low Countries. This is for two reasons: firstly, his inheritance was brought from Holland after his death and secondly, Author obviously was a Dutch name in the 17th century. I can't find the source right now, but if I remember correctly, there was a Dutch merchant by the name of Author Lütkens who had some business in Turku (where Author Duvel lived).

If Author was a rare name, maybe the two Authors were related.

By the way, Author Duvel died in Turku, not in Oulu. His burial record is still extant and I have visited his grave in the Turku Cathedral myself. It is unmarked.

Author Duvel had six children five of whom I have been able to locate.
Kimmo Kemppainen

[petergmdale]

Hi Kimmo,

Many thanks for your Suku Forum posts. I’m still awaiting a further research update from the Netherlands. I will post same forthwith upon receipt. I have a few random comments further to your commentary. These are by no means academic nor particularly well contemplated. However, they are “food for thought”.

1. The last name of the individual you mentioned in your most recent 2 posts “Author Lütkens” is Danish from my cursory review;

2. I have been unable, as yet, to get a sense of what the ethnic background may be for the Christian name “Author”; and

3. The surname “Duvel” is Dutch for “devil” – see Google translation (duivel). Thus, I’m trying to understand whether Aarno Tertti (Espoo) in Genos 54(1983), p. 81-100 deduced that our object of interest “Author Duvel” was a derivative of “Teufel” because he saw, read or understood that same was his name or, rather, that he was first described as “Duvel” and he translated same into “Teufel”. As I understand, the various Christian name and Surname forms of Author’s name are as follows:

Christian Name: Auktor, Auctor, Autter, Autor, Aucter and Autti

Surname: Duval, Duvall, Duwell, Duuel, Düwal, Duuell, Dyfwell, Dyfwel, Dwfwell and Dwfwell

I have not really had any adequate time to properly approach this research but I most welcome, and am grateful for, any thoughts, comments, critiques or suggestions for further enquiry. Many thanks. Kiitos!

Cheers,

Pete

[petergmdale]

Greetings,

Please find below an e-mail I received from Professor Jüri Kivimae who is a professor at the University of Toronto and teaches in the Department of History. His interest is fifteenth and sixteenth-century Europe, focusing on economic, social and cultural history of the Baltic sea region and especially on medieval Livonia. I inquired of him regarding the Fordell, Platz, Duvel and Stork families of Finland. He replied:

“Please have now some of my comments on your research field.

(1) Jöns Fordell's origin from Germany is a 'civilized guess' only, there is no hint to identify him as a German Hansa merchant. There is no doubt that Stockholm had many Germans in the late 1400's, but his name seems to have Nordic roots rather than German. Jöns is actually Jens and thus we may expand the guess that he had e.g. some Danish roots. This is the question, whose supporter he was, did he belonged to the Danish party of Christian II or the Swedish one? His last name sounds more Nordic than German or Dutch. But these are my first thoughts to question Jöns Fordell's identity.

(2) 'Author Duvel' is a strange name combination. I'll not argue his eventual Scottish origin, Trummel -Turnbull is a good sample. The given name is rare, I haven't looked inside German sources, the Braunschweig region is possible but it is still an absolutely rare given name in the Hanseatic region. His last name 'Duvel' is not a translation, but quite a normal last name in Middle Low German. No doubt that 'Duvel' means 'Teufel' (devil) in Modern High German. Tallinn City Archives has some letters on some Joh. Duvel, a Protestant preacher of 1542. And I have met the name of 'Duvel' as a skipper, who served the Hanseatic merchants in the Baltic Sea region.

(3) Regarding 'Storck' we have some sources in Tallinn, first an 'inventory' of Storck from 1604, and a court case from 1604-1616: Michell Jordan c. Storckesche (means the widow of Storck), Erbschaftsprozess.

I'll check these archival sources on Thursday or Friday, if interesting, I'll take some digital photos and send to you with my comments for your research questions."

I welcome any thoughts on the foregoing.

Cheers,

Pete

[Jouni Kaleva]

The family of Hans Platz also requires further research. "Åbo i genealogiskt hänseende" says that Hans Platz's second wife was Brita Henriksdotter Stork, who was the widow of Henrik Schaefer (Platz's first wife is unknown). However, "Turun Kaupungin Historia" states that Hans Platz was married to Anna Hansdotter, widow of Henrik Schaefer!

There must be something very wrong with this family. Most books cite very old books without reviewing the sources.
Kimmo Kemppainen
There seems to be positive proof, that Anna Hansdotter was the widow of the late Henrik Schaefer (died 1592). The crown owed Henrik substantial sums, which went to Anna. She then married Hans Platz, who had been in Schaefer´s service.

The wife of Hans Platz was buried in Turku in Oct. 8. 1595 with a costly ceremony. The name of the deceased is not mentioned, but it can not have been anybody but Anna. (Hausen R: Utdrag ur Åbo Domkyrkas räkenskaper 1553-1634. Hfors 1884. s. 137.)

Only after this, perhaps around 1596 or later, Hans Platz married his second wife Brita Henriksdr. Stork.

Elisabeth Hansdr. Platz was born around 1600, as far as I can see, thus her mother would be Brita and not Anna.

I add some text in Finnish of the same, including some source references.

Ensimmäisen miehensä kuollessa Anna Hannuntyttärellä oli kruunulle toimitetuista tavaroista saatavia 1000 taalaria, mikä oli vielä saamatta yhteensä 7 375 taalarin velasta. Saamistensa takuiksi Anna Hannuntytär ja Hans Platz saivat kaksi taloa, Koriston kylässä ja Kaarinan pitäjässä. Hans Platz ja hänen poikansa omistivat Koriston v:een 1625 saakka.(Turun kaupungin historia 1521-1600, Nide 1, Olavi Nikula; s.320-323)

Vuonna 1594 Henrik Skepparen leski Anna Hannuntytär sai tähän yksinäistaloon verovapauden korvaukseksi miesvainajansa kruununsaatavista. Seuraavasta vuodesta alkaen omisti näin syntynyttä rälssitaloa Annan uusi mies, turkulainen porvari Hans Platz. (REA,s. 504 ja 514. - VSM, s. 477. - VA 221, 1165, 1461, 1495, 1580 ja 1591.)(Kaarinan Pitäjän historia I, Aulis Oja, s. 238)

[Jouni Kaleva]

3. The surname “Duvel” is Dutch for “devil” – see Google translation (duivel). Thus, I’m trying to understand whether Aarno Tertti (Espoo) in Genos 54(1983), p. 81-100 deduced that our object of interest “Author Duvel” was a derivative of “Teufel” because he saw, read or understood that same was his name or, rather, that he was first described as “Duvel” and he translated same into “Teufel”.

Pete

Tertti´s text:
Samantapaisin perustein on pakko arvostella myös olettamusta, että toinen turkulainen 1600-luvun kauppias Autor Duvel olisi skotlantilainen. [51] Sukunimi on näet kiistatta alasaksalainen muoto Teufel (sananmukaisesti siis paholainen) -sanasta, etunimi Autor (Auctor) taas vanha, keskiaikainen Braunschweigissa suosittu etunimi. [52] Itämeren piirissä Duvel-nimi esiintyi jo 1500-luvun ensimmäisellä puoliskolla mm. Riiassa ja Räävelissä. [53](Suomen saksalaiset kauppiassuvut Hypoteeseja, luonnoksia Aarno Tertti, Genos 54(1983), s. 81-100)

Based on similar reasoning one must criticize the assumption that another merchant in Turku in the 1600´s Autor Duvel were Scottish. The family name is beyond arguing a lower German form of Teufel (devil). The forname Autor (Auctor) for its part, is an old middle age popular name in Braunschweig. In the Baltic region the name Duvel is presented already in the first half of the 1500´s in Riika (present day capitol of Latvia) and Rääveli (=present day Tallinn, capitol of Esthonia).

[Kimmo Kemppainen]

Thank you, now it is likely that Hans Platz was indeed married to both women but it was Anna and not Brita who was previously married to Henrik Schaefer.

I don't know if it is sure that Elisabet Platz was Brita Stork's daughter. It is not known when exactly Elisabet Platz was born. One of Elisabet's daughters is said to have been born in 1626. Maybe Elisabet's earliest possible year of birth could be estimated if we knew when her son from the second marriage was born.
Kimmo Kemppainen

There seems to be positive proof, that Anna Hansdotter was the widow of the late Henrik Schaefer (died 1592). The crown owed Henrik substantial sums, which went to Anna. She then married Hans Platz, who had been in Schaefer´s service.

The wife of Hans Platz was buried in Turku in Oct. 8. 1595 with a costly ceremony. The name of the deceased is not mentioned, but it can not have been anybody but Anna. (Hausen R: Utdrag ur Åbo Domkyrkas räkenskaper 1553-1634. Hfors 1884. s. 137.)

Only after this, perhaps around 1596 or later, Hans Platz married his second wife Brita Henriksdr. Stork.

Elisabeth Hansdr. Platz was born around 1600, as far as I can see, thus her mother would be Brita and not Anna.

I add some text in Finnish of the same, including some source references.

Ensimmäisen miehensä kuollessa Anna Hannuntyttärellä oli kruunulle toimitetuista tavaroista saatavia 1000 taalaria, mikä oli vielä saamatta yhteensä 7 375 taalarin velasta. Saamistensa takuiksi Anna Hannuntytär ja Hans Platz saivat kaksi taloa, Koriston kylässä ja Kaarinan pitäjässä. Hans Platz ja hänen poikansa omistivat Koriston v:een 1625 saakka.(Turun kaupungin historia 1521-1600, Nide 1, Olavi Nikula; s.320-323)

Vuonna 1594 Henrik Skepparen leski Anna Hannuntytär sai tähän yksinäistaloon verovapauden korvaukseksi miesvainajansa kruununsaatavista. Seuraavasta vuodesta alkaen omisti näin syntynyttä rälssitaloa Annan uusi mies, turkulainen porvari Hans Platz. (REA,s. 504 ja 514. - VSM, s. 477. - VA 221, 1165, 1461, 1495, 1580 ja 1591.)(Kaarinan Pitäjän historia I, Aulis Oja, s. 238)

[Jouni Kaleva]

I don't know if it is sure that Elisabet Platz was Brita Stork's daughter. It is not known when exactly Elisabet Platz was born. One of Elisabet's daughters is said to have been born in 1626. Maybe Elisabet's earliest possible year of birth could be estimated if we knew when her son from the second marriage was born.
Kimmo Kemppainen
Strictly speaking, we don´t really know if Elisabeth´s mother was Anna or Brita.

In the Finnish text in my previous message, it was stated, that Anna was a widow still in 1594 when she received tax benefits to compensate crown´s debt. The following year, Hans Platz had appeared as her husband. Anna died in 1595.

So Anna´s second marriage lasted only one year, maybe one and a half at the most. Twins excluded, she could only have given birth to one child.

There is mentioned in Turku a Berndt Hansson Platz as a merchant already in 1616. So it would be reasonable to assume that this here Berndt was the only child in Anna´s second marriage. The rest (Hans, Henrik, Christina, Elisabeth) would be from Hans´s second marriage with Brita Stork.

[Kimmo Kemppainen]

That is a very good point indeed.
Kimmo Kemppainen

Strictly speaking, we don´t really know if Elisabeth´s mother was Anna or Brita.

In the Finnish text in my previous message, it was stated, that Anna was a widow still in 1594 when she received tax benefits to compensate crown´s debt. The following year, Hans Platz had appeared as her husband. Anna died in 1595.

So Anna´s second marriage lasted only one year, maybe one and a half at the most. Twins excluded, she could only have given birth to one child.

There is mentioned in Turku a Berndt Hansson Platz as a merchant already in 1616. So it would be reasonable to assume that this here Berndt was the only child in Anna´s second marriage. The rest (Hans, Henrik, Christina, Elisabeth) would be from Hans´s second marriage with Brita Stork.

[Vesa Hynninen]

Hello! According to Genos 3/2002 and Veli-Pekka Toropainen there is also a son to Hans called Gabriel Platz.

Turun raastuvanoikeus 12.5.1637
'Gabriel Platz oikeutettiin saamaan viidesosa isänsä, autuaan Hans Platzin talosta ohi autuaan lankonsa Author Duvalin velkojien.'

The rest (Hans, Henrik, Christina, Elisabeth) would be from Hans´s second marriage with Brita Stork.


It has been an interesting discussion to follow.

Vesa Hynninen

[petergmdale]

Greetings,

Please find below further commentary from Prof. Kivimae that I received today. I welcome any thoughts and am appreciative of the informative discussion above regarding Hans Platz’s two wives and Elisabet’s likely maternal parentage.

Prof. Kivimae:

"Just a few words about my today's visit to Tallinn City Archives (Tallinna Linnaarhiiv = TLA).

(1) Storck's inventory of 1604 (TLA, B.t. 7) is a bit misleading in the printed directory. Original inventory of Hans Storck was written in Reval/Tallinn on Aug. 26, 1598, I'm pretty convinced that after the death of Hans Storck in 1598 (?). This inventory was included to the inventory of the widow of Carsten von Drentel(e)n on February 29, 1604, the reason of this procedure is still unclear. I haven't seen any data on Henrik Stork as Brita Stork's father yet, it is possible that Henrik was a son, brother or close relative of Hans, Storck's name is quite rare in Reval.

(2) Inheritance case of Michell Jordan against the Storckesche (= the widow of Hans Storck) - TLA, B.i. 43 - has a bunch of various records, the Lutheran Pastor of Narva is involved, several Revalian burghers as well. The widow of Hans is called - Gertke van Collen, salych Hans Storckes nagelatene wedewe (1604). So this line is less helpful for you, but I will read the case carefully.

(3) The Pastor of Nuckö (Est Noarootsi, Western Estonia, see Noarootsi parish in internet) has written his name on Jan. 29, 1542 in a following way - Ick Johannes Duffel Jm Caspel tho Nuck Kercherde etc. - TLA, B.m. 12, p. 2r. It is still interesting because Nuckö/Noarootsi was mostly settled by the Swedes. His handwriting and Middle Low German skills are perhaps not indicating his own Swedish roots, but I will not exclude this idea. He used his signet ring to seal the charter (please see two attached pictures).

So you can see that my first findings are not very encouraging."

Cheers,

Pete

[Jouni Kaleva]

Hello! According to Genos 3/2002 and Veli-Pekka Toropainen there is also a son to Hans called Gabriel Platz.

Turun raastuvanoikeus 12.5.1637
'Gabriel Platz oikeutettiin saamaan viidesosa isänsä, autuaan Hans Platzin talosta ohi autuaan lankonsa Author Duvalin velkojien.'

It has been an interesting discussion to follow.

Vesa Hynninen
Hi

This is an interesting find!

Gabriel Platz was in 1637 entitled to one fifth of his father´s house instead of the creditors of Gabriel´s late brother-in-law, Author Duval.

1. Hans Platz had died in 1620, yet the house was undivided.
2. This would indicate that Hans had five heirs still living in 1637.
3. Those five would be
-Hans (elder than brother Henrik in a case in 1629, when Hans was a witness, meaning at least 20 years old)
-Henrik mentioned as a gold smith apprentice in 1629, making him "under-age"
-Kristina - wife of merchant Sander Bruun
-Elisabeth - widow of Author Duval (who died in 1636), perhaps just entering her second marriage, this would give a good reason for the haste of Author Duval´s creditors in the case.
-Gabriel.

Berndt Platz whom I mentioned in my latest message, had died in 1631. I must correct myself: I don´t know his patronym, and I don´t know if he was anyway related to Hans Platz or not.

Now, we must consider, how Hans Platz got his substantial fortune. Great deal of it came through his first wife, Anna Hansdotter. So, if any of the five children were Anna´s and not Brita´s, that would make him/her inherit anything that came through Anna, in this case "a lion´s share". Is my thinking legally sound, here?

At the point, I am inclined to think that Hans Platz and Anna Hansdotter produced no children.

[Ingeborg Palmén]

Hello !
The Platz family was my first really difficult case when I began this wretched pass-time, which developped into a passion very fast. I came almost nowhere. This is what I have gathered up to now:
according to Carpelan HP had a wife buried 1587.
another wife buried 1595, 18.9
Then we know that one of his wives was the widow of Henrik Schefer. One wife`s name was Brita Henriksdotter Storck, one now has revealed herself as Anna.
Children according to Carpelan: 1) dead 1617, 2) Elisabet (died ab. 1661) 3) Hans 4) Berndt (was dead 1629) 5) Henrik (apprentice goldsmith with Hartwig Gullsmed)6) Gabriel (mentioned 1638) 7) Kirstin (m. 1) Alexander Brun, 2) 1641 Johan Somerus. I have one child buried 1618.
Hans Platz apparently married a third time 1595 after the wife dead the same year. "Brudpeng" is paid for HP:s wife to the church. If that is not for HP jr.
There is also a mention about a Kort Platz about 1625, in connection with a house in Mätäjärvi quarter.
according to Sylvi Möller (Suomen valtaporvaristo...) Berndt Platz was a merchant in foreign trade already 1616, so he must have been born before 1590, methinks. Hans Platz was a "bönhas" in 1924, wich means that he had to have some skill as a goldsmith already then. He is a "mästersven" in 1629, when defending his younger brother Henrik, who then was an apprentice.
The intresting thing is that this large family seems to vanish from Turku very fast.
I´m still very unsure of how many wives Hans Platz had, and in which order. Sometimes I even think that this mythical Brita might be Starck and not Storck. - Can anybody give me a clue to where exactly their names are given. - I have only found them as "wife of HP"
Sorry, this is rather muddled (or I´m) That is because I was yesterday at sea, in a small boat in the aftermath of thunderstorm. What one enjoyed 40, 50 years ago, is not exactly the optimal thing for one today.
Anyway I would be happy for all new information. (There was something about a stolen horse and a Platz - I´ll come back when I find that in the minutes).
Have a good summer, everybody !
Ingeborg

[Kimmo Kemppainen]

There is judicial material concerning Elisabet's second marriage. She wished to settle with the debtors to be free to remarry and start a new life.

Since there has been a confusion about Hans Platz's wives we need to make sure that Brita really was Henrik Stork's daughter. I'm saying this because we thus far only have a Hans Stork but no Henrik Stork. We should make sure that Anna Hansdotter wasn't Hans Stork's daughter. Does anybody know if the whole name of Brita Henriksdotter Stork is mentioned anywhere?
Kimmo Kemppainen


Hi

This is an interesting find!

Gabriel Platz was in 1637 entitled to one fifth of his father´s house instead of the creditors of Gabriel´s late brother-in-law, Author Duval.

1. Hans Platz had died in 1620, yet the house was undivided.
2. This would indicate that Hans had five heirs still living in 1637.
3. Those five would be
-Hans (elder than brother Henrik in a case in 1629, when Hans was a witness, meaning at least 20 years old)
-Henrik mentioned as a gold smith apprentice in 1629, making him "under-age"
-Kristina - wife of merchant Sander Bruun
-Elisabeth - widow of Author Duval (who died in 1636), perhaps just entering her second marriage, this would give a good reason for the haste of Author Duval´s creditors in the case.
-Gabriel.

Berndt Platz whom I mentioned in my latest message, had died in 1631. I must correct myself: I don´t know his patronym, and I don´t know if he was anyway related to Hans Platz or not.

Now, we must consider, how Hans Platz got his substantial fortune. Great deal of it came through his first wife, Anna Hansdotter. So, if any of the five children were Anna´s and not Brita´s, that would make him/her inherit anything that came through Anna, in this case "a lion´s share". Is my thinking legally sound, here?

At the point, I am inclined to think that Hans Platz and Anna Hansdotter produced no children.

[Jouni Kaleva]

Does anybody know if the whole name of Brita Henriksdotter Stork is mentioned anywhere?
Kimmo Kemppainen
I have a second hand copy of TurkuCathedral burial record (Åbo domkyrkas begrafninslängder):

1621 Octobris 7. Hans Platzes effterlatne enckia/in i kyrckian/medh alla klåckor, sol:t -9½ daler.

So, no luck here, no name mentioned. Yet the name must have appeared somewhere, I don´t think that anybody could have invented the name out of the blue!

[Kimmo Kemppainen]

I can even find pictures of the original church accounts. It may also be possible to find pictures of the original judicial records if we can find out which ones are needed. It would be a great idea to check the originals to eliminate any past mistakes.
Kimmo Kemppainen


I have a second hand copy of TurkuCathedral burial record (Åbo domkyrkas begrafninslängder):

1621 Octobris 7. Hans Platzes effterlatne enckia/in i kyrckian/medh alla klåckor, sol:t -9½ daler.

So, no luck here, no name mentioned. Yet the name must have appeared somewhere, I don´t think that anybody could have invented the name out of the blue!

[Ingeborg Palmén]

Back to the past - I found the horse. It is a case about a horsethief (Åbo dombok 10/4 1624) and concerns Berndt, whose horse has been stolen i St Karins, a parish outside of Turku. - Both Bernt and Kort (mentioned 1625) seem to be elder than the rest of the Platzes we know about. Could be from a former marriage or not (closely) related to this family at all.
There is still Carpelan´s info about the wife buried in 1587 to take into account. - Anna Hansdotter could anyway not be the mother of both Henrik Schefer´s elder children and Hans Platz´s youngest. There is also the possibility that Scheffer was married at least 2 times.
Still, the important thing would be to find the originals were the actual names of these wives are written out.
Ingeborg

[petergmdale]

Greetings,

Just a brief note to touch base. I was on vacation in Hollywood, California for 6 days and have not been as attentive to genealogical endeavours as usual. I’m interested in whether there has been any progress with respect to identifying the origin of references to “Brita Henriksdotter Stork” being the wife of Hans Platz? I’d be grateful for an update.

I have made some potential progress (with assistance) regarding the Platz family which I would like to share with you. I eagerly invite your commentary, views, suggestions for further research, etc.

Below please find an e-mail that I received from Ms. Judith van Santen, Regionaal Archief Nijmegen (Nijmegen Regional Archives), further to my inquiry of her regarding the Platz family of Nijmegen and, in particular, Kort Platz. I understand from my own review that “Kort” is a derivative or alternative to “Konrad” (http://www.mybaby.net.au/baby-name-full-detail/coenraad/41516/1 (http://www.mybaby.net.au/baby-name-full-detail/coenraad/41516/1)):

“A search on Coenraad Platz in the collections and archives of the Regionaal Archief Nijmegen or RAN (Nijmegen Regional Archives) has been positive as I have found his name in several records. Coenraad Platz or Plas is mentioned in the 'Burgerboek van Nijmegen' (Citizens Book of Nijmegen) and he was a 'rentmeester' (bailiff or manager); he is mentioned as such ('rentmeester') in several sources:

1. Het Archief van de Nijmeegse Broederschappen' 1330-1965 / The Archive of the Nijmegen Fraternities 1330-1965.
2. Het Bestuurlijk Archief van de gemeente Nijmegen 1196-1811 / The Administrative Archive of the Municipality of Nijmegen 1196-1811
3. Het Archief van het Borgerkinderenweeshuis Nijmegen 1560-1817 / The Archive of the Orphanage for Children of Nijmegen Citizens 1560-1817. Het Rechterlijk Archief van Nijmegen 1410-1811 / The Judicial Archive of Nijmegen 1410-1811.

If you have mastered the Dutch language to some degree you may use the website of the RAN: http://www2.nijmegen.nl/wonen/oudste_stad/Archief (http://www2.nijmegen.nl/wonen/oudste_stad/Archief); in the menu on the right side click the top button 'Archieven en Inventarissen'. If you enter the name Plas in the field 'Vrij zoeken' on that page, you will get a number of hits. These hits will show to you in which of the above-mentioned archives records containing the name Coenraad Plas can be found. We regret that these records are not available in digital format. The original records have to be read and examined in the Reading Room of the RAN.

I have not found any records about his brother Hans Platz/Hans Plas; I have not carried out an exhaustive search of Hans, but I think that nothing will be found about him in Nijmegen sources.”

With respect to the foregoing, I have found the following references to “Coenraad Plas” which I believe may be informative. In particular, with reference to his wife Johanna (Jenneke) van Kessel who remarried post 1628 (which is the year I believe he apparently died as referenced in Turku court records). Please see the following references:

http://www.biografischwoordenboekgelderland.nl/bio/4_Christoffel_Biesman (http://www.biografischwoordenboekgelderland.nl/bio/4_Christoffel_Biesman)

http://books.google.ca/books?id=VcIBAAAAYAAJ&pg=PR32&lpg=PR32&dq=%22Coenraad+Plas%22&source=bl&ots=HOGuYnHLv1&sig=szHq1v13ngZmblwS0y1IC6uDNtI&hl=en&ei=Z9U4TpaWGMfEgQfGup3QBg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CEcQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=%22Coenraad%20Plas%22&f=false (http://books.google.ca/books?id=VcIBAAAAYAAJ&pg=PR32&lpg=PR32&dq=%22Coenraad+Plas%22&source=bl&ots=HOGuYnHLv1&sig=szHq1v13ngZmblwS0y1IC6uDNtI&hl=en&ei=Z9U4TpaWGMfEgQfGup3QBg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CEcQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=%22Coenraad%20Plas%22&f=false)

I’d be grateful if anyone could please review the Turku court cases that reference the estate litigation regarding Kort/Konrad Platz and advise if his wife is the same as referenced above? If so, perhaps, this will help corroborate that Hans Platz may have been, most likely, Hans Plas a Dutch name and, hence, of Dutch extraction. I, as always, welcome your view, commentary and suggestions.

Lastly, I attach a further e-mail that I received from Mario Prudon for your consideration:

“Sorry for my late response. Once again I checked the indexes in the books that I mentioned before, this time on the names Duval and Stork and variants. And once again I have to report you a negative result. (Well, a negative result is also a result.) Another book that I consulted was 'Het Rechterlijk Archief der Stad Nijmegen 1410-1811', also on the name Platz. I am sorry that I cannot provide you with better information.”

Please kindly let me know your thoughts on the foregoing and kiitos!

Cheers,

Pete

[Kimmo Kemppainen]

I have been busy myself. I'll definitely let you know if I come across the document in question. Anyway, great work with the Dutch side. Thank you for sharing this.
Kimmo Kemppainen

[petergmdale]

Greetings,

Further to my e-mail of yesterday, I would like to clarify the name of Hans Platz’s brother who is mentioned in Turku litigation in the 1650s. My questions are:

1. Is the deceased individual who is the object of the litigation specifically identified as Hans Platz (Sr.)’s brother?

2. What is the deceased individual’s name, i.e. Kort or Konrad?

3. What year did the deceased die?

4. Is the deceased individual’s wife (who I understand was a litigant) mentioned by name and, if so, what is her name?

5. Is the deceased individual’s wife specifically described as being from Nijmegen?

I have discovered that the wife of ‘Coenraad Plas’, who was a 'Rentmeester' or Steward or Bailiff in Nijmegen, was named Johanna (Jenneke) van Kessel and that she remarried a Christoffel Biesman in 1628 who was the son of the Mayor of Nijmegen.

I’d appreciate any insight with respect to the foregoing and, in addition, any additional source references to Brita Henriksdotter Stork if same have been discovered. Many thanks.

Cheers,

Pete

[Jouni Kaleva]

Greetings,

Further to my e-mail of yesterday, I would like to clarify the name of Hans Platz’s brother who is mentioned in Turku litigation in the 1650s. My questions are:

1. Is the deceased individual who is the object of the litigation specifically identified as Hans Platz (Sr.)’s brother?

2. What is the deceased individual’s name, i.e. Kort or Konrad?

3. What year did the deceased die?

4. Is the deceased individual’s wife (who I understand was a litigant) mentioned by name and, if so, what is her name?

5. Is the deceased individual’s wife specifically described as being from Nijmegen?

I have discovered that the wife of ‘Coenraad Plas’, who was a 'Rentmeester' or Steward or Bailiff in Nijmegen, was named Johanna (Jenneke) van Kessel and that she remarried a Christoffel Biesman in 1628 who was the son of the Mayor of Nijmegen.

I’d appreciate any insight with respect to the foregoing and, in addition, any additional source references to Brita Henriksdotter Stork if same have been discovered. Many thanks.

Cheers,

Pete
Hi

All I have is this:
Turku City Council Apr. 2, 1624
Kort Platz is mentioned in a case, where he had received a house in Mätäjärvi as a mortgage from Hans Bogge. Looks like Bogge had sold the same. Kort was given right to retain the house until the buyer pays the original mortgage.
In the book: Bonsdorff Carl v.: Utdrag ur Åbo Stads dombok 1624-1625. Helsingfors 1885. (Bidrag till Åbo stad historia II.)

The litigation on Kort Platz (who died in 1628) inheritance was held in 1654 and Elisabet and Christina Platz took part in it. This is an unsupported note in my files. How to find the original? Åbo Stads dombok??

[Kimmo Kemppainen]

A series of excerpts from Turku judicial records has been published in Genos over some time. The essential information could probably be found there if somebody had the time to look up the relevant issue.

There is also that old series of books that includes both the church accounts and judicial records. That book could do as well, I think.

The case in question is probably the one about Gottfried Rosskamp bringing the inheritance (of Kort Platz?) from Holland.

Kimmo Kemppainen

Hi

All I have is this:
Turku City Council Apr. 2, 1624
Kort Platz is mentioned in a case, where he had received a house in Mätäjärvi as a mortgage from Hans Bogge. Looks like Bogge had sold the same. Kort was given right to retain the house until the buyer pays the original mortgage.
In the book: Bonsdorff Carl v.: Utdrag ur Åbo Stads dombok 1624-1625. Helsingfors 1885. (Bidrag till Åbo stad historia II.)

The litigation on Kort Platz (who died in 1628) inheritance was held in 1654 and Elisabet and Christina Platz took part in it. This is an unsupported note in my files. How to find the original? Åbo Stads dombok??

[Jouni Kaleva]

A series of excerpts from Turku judicial records has been published in Genos over some time. The essential information could probably be found there if somebody had the time to look up the relevant issue.

There is also that old series of books that includes both the church accounts and judicial records. That book could do as well, I think.

The case in question is probably the one about Gottfried Rosskamp bringing the inheritance (of Kort Platz?) from Holland.

Kimmo Kemppainen
Toropainen series has only reached 1647, it is not helpful here. Which is this Rosskamp case? Is it referred in the old books (Bidrag till Åbo historia)?

[Kimmo Kemppainen]

That's a question that I do have an answer to:
Toropainen states in his article "Turun porvariston keskinäiset verkostot vuosina 1549 - 1660 SSS:n vuosikirja 47 s. 138: "Myös Anders Merthen sai oikeudelta todistuksen joulukuussa 1654, että Konrad Platz oli kuollut vuonna 1628 Hollannin Nimwogenissa ja jättänyt jälkeensä perinnön, jonka Gottfrid Rosskamp oli tuonut Turkuun."

"Also Anders Merthen received a testimony from the court of law in December 1654 stating that Konrad Platz had died in 1628 in Nimwogen Holland and left an inheritance that Gottfrid Rosskamp had brought to Turku."
Kimmo Kemppainen

Toropainen series has only reached 1647, it is not helpful here. Which is this Rosskamp case? Is it referred in the old books (Bidrag till Åbo historia)?

[Ingeborg Palmén]

Welcome back to the real world, that is Turku in the early 17th century, Pete!
I have been reading this Åbo dombok, which is not a primary source, but good enough for me now, anyway, in order to refresh (and reaffirm) my facts on the Platz family. November 2nd 1629 is the case of the boy Henrik Hansson Platz against his employer Hartnich Welligh. In that case is stated without doubt that Hans Platz jr and Henrik were brothers. The two brothers-in-law, Bruun and Duwell are in it, too. - I wanted to check this out, because Veli-Pekka Toropainen in his paper cited above mentions the younger Hans Platz, but does only say that he is not to be confounded with the elder one and does not mention that they are family.
From this same case one can draw the conclusion that Henrik is much younger than Hans. Henrik is called "the boy", gossen. I think he cannot have been more than 15 years old then. That would mean he was born in 1614 or after that year. Hans Jr was bönhasing (interloping?) as a goldsmith in 1624. That means he must have had a formal training already then. But we still don´t know who their mother was. It seems impossible it would be the same women who was Henrik Skepper´s first wife, their eldest son was born approx. 1570.
Has anybody given a thougt to the fact that the two daughters in the Platz family were married to merchants, the father was a merchant, but the two sons Hans and Henrik were trained to be goldsmiths? As a trade it was, of course, very respected, but still !
Have a nice august weekend, with or without crayfish ! Ingeborg

[petergmdale]

Hi Kimmo et al,

This is certainly interesting. I am still wondering, with respect to the Turku court case, whether:

1. Is Konrad identified as Hans Platz (Sr.)’s brother?

2. Is Konrad’s wife identified in the Turku court case and, if so, what is her name?

3. Is Konrad’s wife specifically described as being from Nijmegen?

Lastly, I have further discovered that the second husband (Christoffel Biesman) of the wife (Johanna (Jenneke) van Kessel) of “Coenraad Plas” of Nijmegen, who was a Rentmeester, was the Mayor of Nijmegen as was his father.

Cheers,

Pete

[Kimmo Kemppainen]

Of course, I did read all of your questions but I can't tell you anything more than my source lets me know. As you can see, I conveyed the text as it is.

It's possible that the original source gives more details. We'll see once somebody gains access to it. I probably already know where to find it. I only need the time to go to the city library.
Kimmo Kemppainen

Hi Kimmo et al,

This is certainly interesting. I am still wondering, with respect to the Turku court case, whether:

1. Is Konrad identified as Hans Platz (Sr.)’s brother?

2. Is Konrad’s wife identified in the Turku court case and, if so, what is her name?

3. Is Konrad’s wife specifically described as being from Nijmegen?

Lastly, I have further discovered that the second husband (Christoffel Biesman) of the wife (Johanna (Jenneke) van Kessel) of “Coenraad Plas” of Nijmegen, who was a Rentmeester, was the Mayor of Nijmegen as was his father.

Cheers,

Pete

[petergmdale]

Hi Kimmo,

Thank you for the clarification. Much appreciated!

Cheers,

Pete

[Kimmo Kemppainen]

I went to the library today and checked "Bidrag till Åbo Stads Historia" but it didn't seem to include judicial records from the 1650's. I suppose we need to find the original source on a microfilm. It should be in the National Archives in Helsinki. Or maybe the Digital Archive will include the judicial records of Turku some day.
Kimmo Kemppainen

Of course, I did read all of your questions but I can't tell you anything more than my source lets me know. As you can see, I conveyed the text as it is.

It's possible that the original source gives more details. We'll see once somebody gains access to it. I probably already know where to find it. I only need the time to go to the city library.
Kimmo Kemppainen

[Kimmo Kemppainen]

As to the Duvels, I have also found two other persons by that name in the neighboring areas of Finland in the 17th century. These are Gotthard Dyfwell, who lived in Vyborg, and Wulf (Wolfgang) Dyfwell, who lived in Neovia.
Kimmo Kemppainen

[Ingeborg Palmén]

Interesting, Kimmo. Where did you find them ? (And where or what is Neovia?)
Have a nice sunday
Ingeborg

[Kimmo Kemppainen]

I found them in church accounts. Neovia was the town that Finns knew as Nevanlinna and Swedes as Nyen. Neovia was the Latin name. I used that because I didn't know any English name. One might exist or not.
Kimmo Kemppainen


Interesting, Kimmo. Where did you find them ? (And where or what is Neovia?)
Have a nice sunday
Ingeborg

[Kimmo Kemppainen]

Gotthard Dyfwell made girdles in Vyborg and Wulf Dyfwell was a master builder in Nyen. Both were active in the 1690's.
Have a nice Sunday, too
Kimmo Kemppainen

Interesting, Kimmo. Where did you find them ? (And where or what is Neovia?)
Have a nice sunday
Ingeborg

[petergmdale]

Greetings,

I corresponded with Veli Pekka Toropainen regarding Kort Platz of Turku and Coenraad Plas of Nijmegen and he replied in an e-mail dated August 8, 2011, with respect to the Platz family, as following:

“Here is some information:

20.2.1633 Valborg Ropakko had two illegitimate children with Kort (Conrad) Platz.

I don’t remember that Conrad’s wife’s name is mentioned in Turku.

Conrad did die at an early stage of the 1600s but I will try to find that date for you at the archives.”

From the foregoing, it would appear that the Kort Platz of Turku (assuming he is the individual who had the illegitimate children in 1633) is not the same individual as the Konrad Platz of Nijmegen who died in 1628. The Konrad Platz of Nijmegen may still, however, be the same individual as Coenraad Plas whose wife remarried Christoffel Biesman (Mayor of Nijmegen) in 1628.

Cheers,

Pete

[petergmdale]

Greetings,

I received another e-mail from Mario Prudon, a professional genealogist and researcher in the Netherlands, who states in an e-mail dated August 8, 2011, in response to my further inquiry of him regarding the Platz family in the Netherlands, the following:

In reply to your question: ‘Coenraad Plas’, at first sight, seems Dutch to me. ‘Konrad Platz’, however, seems German at first sight. But how much do these names differ from each other? Hardly at all. I believe that they could concern one and the same person.

In my own genealogy I have a guy whose ordinary daily name was Loet. People addressed him as Loet. But, in official papers his name was Lodewijk. He originated from the French speaking part of Belgium. There his name was Louis. He was baptized in the Roman Catholic Church. In the register of baptisms his name was Ludovicus - in Latin. So, I believe that Coenraad Plas and Konrad Platz can be one person.”

Lastly, does anyone have any progress on identifying the origination of Brita Henriksdotter Stork in the historical record or literature?

Cheers,

Pete

[petergmdale]

Greetings,

Just a short post to say that I did recently note that the Suomalaisen Kirjallisuuden Seura - Biografiakeskus website does state that Brita Henriksdotter Stork is the 2nd wife of Hans Platz in her 2nd marriage and the mother of Kristina Platz in its biography of Johan Johansson Tuderus. I’m uncertain what sources they used.

http://www.kansallisbiografia.fi/paimenmuisto/?eid=2348 (http://www.kansallisbiografia.fi/paimenmuisto/?eid=2348)


Cheers,

Pete

[Kimmo Kemppainen]

In the Swedish sources of the 17th century German orthography was used even if the person in question was Dutch. Thus Konrad or Kort Platz may have been Conraet Plas. The scribes didn't know or care how a Dutch person had spelled his name in his home country. The same German-Swedish orthography was used for everyone.

I believe that Hans Platz sr. may also have had a son called Konrad.

The information that Biografiakeskus gives is obviously not based on new research. It only repeats what the old genealogical books say and what we already know.
Kimmo Kemppainen

[petergmdale]

Greetings,

I understand from Kimmo that Author Duvel’s grave is identifiable in Turku Cathedral although unmarked. Does anyone have a picture of Author’s grave or can they describe where it is located in the Cathedral?

In addition, are the graves of Hans Platz and/or Brita Stork identifiable in Turku Cathedral? If so, does anyone have any pictures and can they describe where the graves are located in the Cathedral? Many thanks.

Regards,

Pete

[Kimmo Kemppainen]

Only Author Duvel's gravesite is approximately known. Hans Platz and his wives' gravesite is not identifiable unless somebody finds their names on the coffins in the crypt. I don't have access there.

I asked the guide were Author's grave should be. She told me that the correct place might be the following. Once you enter the Cathedral, exit the narthex, enter the main nave and turn to the left. Go to the first exit corridor on the left (to the north). That's were the grave should be, below the corridor. The original text says that the grave is opposite the säjare. That's a Swedish word that I cannot translate into English right now.
Kimmo Kemppainen

Greetings,

I understand from Kimmo that Author Duvel’s grave is identifiable in Turku Cathedral although unmarked. Does anyone have a picture of Author’s grave or can they describe where it is located in the Cathedral?

In addition, are the graves of Hans Platz and/or Brita Stork identifiable in Turku Cathedral? If so, does anyone have any pictures and can they describe where the graves are located in the Cathedral? Many thanks.

Regards,

Pete

[Jouni Kaleva]

The original text says that the grave is opposite the säjare. That's a Swedish word that I cannot translate into English right now.
Kimmo Kemppainen
http://g3.spraakdata.gu.se/saob/

Säjare = sejare. As far as I can understand this Swedish definition, it is a pointer, like in a sun dial, or a clock. Does this make sense? Is there or was there some kind of clock or clockwork calender etc. on the wall of Turku cathedral?

[Kimmo Kemppainen]

Very well, then. The original document of Author Duvel's burial can be viewed behind this link:

http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=1690053&fullpic=1

it states that Duvel was buried "i Kyrkian moot Säijaren".

Kimmo Kemppainen

http://g3.spraakdata.gu.se/saob/

Säjare = sejare. As far as I can understand this Swedish definition, it is a pointer, like in a sun dial, or a clock. Does this make sense? Is there or was there some kind of clock or clockwork calender etc. on the wall of Turku cathedral?

[petergmdale]

Greetings,

The e-mail below confirms that the Dutch employed their own orthography similar to (and the reverse of) what Kimmo discusses above.

Judith van Santen, with the Regionaal Archief Nijmegen (Nijmegen Regional Archives), states in an e-mail dated August 16, 2011, in response to my inquiry of the archives regarding the spelling of names in the Netherlands, the following:

“Talking about variations in names, all the possibilities you have mentioned are plausible. Coenraad Plas sounds very Dutch indeed. However, that does not necessarily mean that he originated from The Netherlands. Coenraad and Hans may very well have come to Nijmegen from Germany and their family name may have been adapted to the Dutch language - Plas - and later again reverted to German - Platz. Another consideration is that the spelling of names was not adhered to consistently in that time. During their lifetime, including their stay in Nijmegen, there existed certainly several variants of their name. In the Schepenprotocollen (Protocols of the Aldermen) I have found several different spellings of the first name of Coenraad Plas: Coenraet, Coenraedt, Coendert, Coenraadt and Conradt, all were mentioned during the same period in the Protocols as 'rentmeester' (manager or bailiff); thus I assume that these variants of the name 'Coenraad' refer to the same person.

The Schepenprotocollen or Protocols of the Aldermen can be found in 'Het Rechterlijk Archief van Nijmegen 1410-1811 / The Judicial Records of Nijmegen 1410-1811'.”

Cheers,

Pete

[petergmdale]

Greetings,

Below please find two e-mails FYI from Ms. Riikka Kaisti, Curator of Turku Cathedral, dated August 17 and 18, 2011 in response to my inquiry regarding the burials of Author Duvel, Hans Platz and Brita Stork in Turku Cathedral:

August 17, 2011

“Dear Mr. Peter Dale,

1. Author Duvel. His name is mentioned in the record of the men who had made donations to the cathedral in order to get a new bell.

2. Hans Platz was found. He was buried in the cathedral with three bells ringing 3. January 1621. Next year his widow was buried in the cathedral with all bells. The place of his grave in the dome is not mentioned. His wife was buried 8. October 1595 with all bells. His child was buried in the church yard 28. March 1617 and another child 11. September 1618.

3. Jacob Stork was buried in the cathedral 2 July 1600 with all bells.”

August 18, 2011

“Dear Mr. Pekka Dale,

Good morning!

The answers:
1. You have right. Author Duvel was buried May 10 1636 in the church near a "säjare" ("moot säijaren").

2. No names of Hans Platz´s widows are mentioned. No marriage record.

3. The occupation of Jacob Stork from Revall is not mentioned.”

It is interesting to note a child of Hans Platz was buried in 1618 as well as 1617. It is also interesting to note Jacob Stork of Reval.

Cheers,

Pete

[petergmdale]

Greetings,

Just a brief note to touch base. I trust everyone has had an enjoyable Labour Day weekend. I am curious if anyone has had an opportunity to review their respective notes and see if the name of the wife of Kort Platz (Coenraad Plas) is revealed in the Turku litigation/court documentation from the 1650s. This would be helpful to provide conclusive evidence that Hans Platz (Mayor of Turku – 1616-1620) was the brother of Coenraad Plas who was the Rentmeester of Nijmegen. If I can establish this I will retain a researcher/genealogist to assist me (us) in reviewing the documentation available in Nijmegen regarding Coenraad Plas to try and establish his (and hopefully by extension) Hans’ place of origin. Many thanks again for your assistance.

Cheers,

Pete

[Ingeborg Palmén]

Thank you Pete for your information, Unfortunately the Turku records are in Turku and not in Helsinki where I am, I tried to have a peep at them in august and was told that "of course you can´t find them, they are in Turku". I tried to see some other records, too, and they were in Vaasa! But I wanted to thank you so very much for sharing your results with us, and I hope that you`ll not be too depressed, since we here in Finland seem to be rather lazy in finding out things. - And thank you specially for this Jakob Storck, he was a new acqaintance for me, anyway.
Just some remarks relating to this (and previous) periods in our history. I have the impression that the question of nationality was not an important one. People were not danes or swedes, they were merely merchants from somewhere. The language barrier was not that high, plattdeutsh, swedish and danish was easy to understand. Some swedes were for the union in the 15th and early 16th century. It was more a question of clans than of nationality. The Hansa had its own foreign policy, although the cities were in different countries. - But this is alla private speculation.
Alas, we have no labour day in Finland, we just have to work !
Your very distant cousin Ingeborg

[petergmdale]

Greetings,

Thanks for your note Ingeborg! Just a few additional thoughts in an attempt to summarize the Platz/Plas Turku/Nijmegen information.

Firstly, it appears to me that there was a Coenraad Plas who was the Steward of Nijmegen who died in 1613. (see –http://books.google.ca/books?id=VcIBAAAAYAAJ&pg=PR32&lpg=PR32&dq=%22coenraad+plas%22&source=bl&ots=HOGuZkAJuY&sig=_c5ehSmeOKbz09wevHxKfCDcARE&hl=en&ei=qMo5TqHtIcTAgQePw9jOBg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CD8Q6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=%22coenraad%20plas%22&f=false (http://books.google.ca/books?id=VcIBAAAAYAAJ&pg=PR32&lpg=PR32&dq=%22coenraad+plas%22&source=bl&ots=HOGuZkAJuY&sig=_c5ehSmeOKbz09wevHxKfCDcARE&hl=en&ei=qMo5TqHtIcTAgQePw9jOBg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CD8Q6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=%22coenraad%20plas%22&f=false)).

This publication titled ‘Werken der Vereeniging tot uitgaaf der bronnen van het oud-vaderlandsche recht gevestigd te Utrecht, Issue 11’ mentions Coenraad Plas on two occasions. The first mention references a publication at the Library at the Hague which is a paper with a parchment cover with the inscription ‘Nijmegen, Rechten, Costumen, Oude en Nieuwe brief’ (Nijmegen, Law, Costume, Old and New letter). According to a memorandum on the front page it is ‘written by Coenraad Plas, in his life, Rentmeester of Nijmegen, died shortly after the spring 1613’.

We know, however, that another Coenraad Plas was the Rentmeester of Nijmegen and that he is referenced in the Nijmegen Archives’ records in the 1620s. (see – http://www2.nijmegen.nl/wonen/oudste_stad/Archief (http://www2.nijmegen.nl/wonen/oudste_stad/Archief). In the menu on the right side click the top button 'Archieven en Inventarissen'. Enter the name Plas in the field 'Vrij zoeken' on that page.

We also know that the widow of a Coenraad Plas, Rentmeester of Nijmegen, named Johanna (Jenneke) van Kessel was remarried to Christoffel Biesman in 1628 (see: http://www.biografischwoordenboekgelderland.nl/bio/4_Christoffel_Biesman (http://www.biografischwoordenboekgelderland.nl/bio/4_Christoffel_Biesman)). The Biographical Dictionary of Gelderland mentions a ‘Coenraad Plas’ in connection with the biography of a ‘Christoffel [Christopher] Biesman’ who was the son of the Mayor of Nijmegen (and future Mayor of Nijmegen himself). It states as follows:

“Christoffel [Christopher] Biesman, ca.1570 -1634, patrician. By combining the available data, the birth of Christoffel Biesman, eldest son of Jacob Biesman (1544-1599) and Gertrude van Beuningen ("Gertken van Boenynghen" † 1572/1573), is to be established ca.1570. Christoffel Biesman was married in August 1589 to Rutgerdis Dassen († 1627). In 1628, shortly after her death, he married Johanna (Jenneke) van Kessel, widow of the Nijmegen steward Coenraad Plas. Both marriages were childless. On March 19, 1634 he died in his hometown Nijmegen."

Further, we know that Veli Pekka Toropainen states in his article "Turun porvariston keskinäiset verkostot vuosina 1549 - 1660 SSS:n vuosikirja 47 s. 138: "Myös Anders Merthen sai oikeudelta todistuksen joulukuussa 1654, että Konrad Platz oli kuollut vuonna 1628 Hollannin Nimwogenissa ja jättänyt jälkeensä perinnön, jonka Gottfrid Rosskamp oli tuonut Turkuun."

"Also Anders Merthen received a testimony from the court of law in December 1654 stating that Konrad Platz had died in 1628 in Nijmegen, Holland and left an inheritance that Gottfrid Rosskamp had brought to Turku."

It certainly seems possible that the Coenraad Plas who was a Rentmeester in Nijmegen and who was deceased in 1628 when his wife remarried and the Konrad Platz who died in 1628 in Nijmegen and is mentioned in Turku court records in 1654 are one and the same individual. Identifying the name of the latter Konrad Platz’s wife seems a hopeful way to confirm this. The relationship, however, between Konrad Platz and Hans Platz (Mayor of Turku – 1616-1620) must also be established, i.e. do the court records confirm that they were brothers?

Lastly, another interesting thought is that Coenraad Plas, husband of Johanna (Jenneke) van Kessel and Rentmeester of Nijmegen may, perhaps, be the son of Coenraad Plas, Rentmeester of Nijmegen, referenced above who appears to have died in 1613. Could this likewise be Hans Platz’s father? Lots of speculation I know! This will warrant further inquiry.

Cheers,

Pete

[petergmdale]

Greetings,

I recognize that my prior post includes speculation, but my ambition is that we can establish Coenraad Plas (Rentmeester of Nijmegen) as the brother of Hans Platz (Mayor of Turku) and, by extension, that the elder Coenraad Plas (also a Rentmeester of Nijmegen) is Coenraad and Hans’ father. This will require the following:

1. Establish that Coenraad Plas (Rentmeester of Nijmegen) who died in or prior to 1628 (when his widow remarried) but was alive in 1621 (based on archival records) is the same individual as the Konrad Platz who died in Nijmegen in 1628 and whose estate was the subject of court action in 1654;

2. Confirm that Konrad Platz (who died in Nijmegen in 1628) is the brother of Hans Platz (is this established in the 1654 court records?); and

3. Establish that the earlier Coenraad Plas (also a Rentmeester of Nijmegen who died in the Spring of 1613) was the father of the later Coenraad and, by extension, Hans Platz of Turku.

I am interested in any thoughts, or suggestions for additional inquiry, that any members of this forum may have. Thank you.

Cheers,

Pete

[petergmdale]

Greetings,

Just a short note. I have not received any responses to my past few posts. Thus, I’m assuming that I will need to retain a Finnish genealogist to review the 1654 Turku court case regarding the estate of Kort Platz of Nijmegen. I would appreciate it if anyone would kindly provide me with the name and contact information for a professional Finnish genealogist who may assist me in transcribing the aforementioned court case. To repeat, my hope is to establish that Coenraad Plas (Rentmeester of Nijmegen) who died in or prior to 1628 (when his widow remarried) but was alive in 1621 (based on archival records) is the same individual as the Konrad Platz who died in Nijmegen in 1628 and whose estate was the subject of court action in 1654 and, further, to confirm that Konrad Platz (who died in Nijmegen in 1628) is the brother of Hans Platz (Mayor of Turku 1616-1620). Thank you.

Cheers,

Pete

[petergmdale]

Greetings,

I just hear back from Judith van Santen (Hetarchief*nijmegen.nl), with the Regionaal Archief Nijmegen (Nijmegen Regional Archives), in response to my inquiry of the archives regarding whether another Coenraad Plas who was a Rentmeester of Nijmegen who died in 1613 appeared in their records. She stated the following:

“Looks like you're right, there appears to be another Coenraad Plas: in the Protocols of the Alderman I saw a record which was written in 1626. In the publication you mentioned it was suggested that Coenraad Plas died in 1613.”

I will keep searching and see if I can identify the wife of the later Coenraad Plas, Rentmeester of Nijmegen.

Cheers,

Pete

[Ingeborg Palmén]

Interesting - could this Conrad jr be the son of Conrad senior. Then Hans could be the son of Conrad sr. Only he (Hans) did not have any child named Conrad, which would have to be expected. - On the other hand he had several children buried whose names we don´t know.
Cheers
Ingeborg

[Kimmo Kemppainen]

But I believe that Hans Platz did have a son called Konrad or Kort. Wasn't it Kort Platz of Turku who had a liaison with Valborg Rapakko?
Kimmo Kemppainen

Interesting - could this Conrad jr be the son of Conrad senior. Then Hans could be the son of Conrad sr. Only he (Hans) did not have any child named Conrad, which would have to be expected. - On the other hand he had several children buried whose names we don´t know.
Cheers
Ingeborg

[Kimmo Kemppainen]

Kurt Platz was mentioned in 1632 (in a judicial record?) for having had three children with Valborg Rapakko. We don't know for sure if he was Hans Platz's son but who else could have been his father? If Kurt was indeed amongst the quick as late as 1632 he could not be Hans's brother who was certainly dead by then. He could, of course, be Hans's nephew from Holland but I suppose it is far more likely that he was Hans's son.
Kimmo Kemppainen

But I believe that Hans Platz did have a son called Konrad or Kort. Wasn't it Kort Platz of Turku who had a liaison with Valborg Rapakko?
Kimmo Kemppainen

[Ingeborg Palmén]

That is interesting. His liaison with this Valborg has eluded me. I only have a note about him and a mortgage in the Mätäjärvi quartier, 2.4 1625. I have not been sure whether he was of that same Platz family, but it looks fairly obvious now, when we know about the Conrads in the Netherlands. Then he is probably the eldest son. And where and when the h-ll did he disappear ? All the Platz sons seem to disappear from Turku.
If you have a boat and it is still in water, look after it !
Greetings from a stormy Helsinki ! Ingeborg

[petergmdale]

Greetings,

Thank you Kimmo and Ingeborg for your comments. I am still working away on trying to identify the wife of the Konrad Platz who died in Nijmegen in 1628 and who was the object of a Turku court case in 1654. I have requested some assistance in this regard and will be sure to update this forum forthwith when I hear back.

Cheers,

Pete

[Anne C.]

Hi Pete,

This is all very interesting. Thank you for all your work.

Anne

[petergmdale]

Greetings,

I would like to touch base and make an inquiry to see if any academic members of this forum have addressed, conjured or epiphanized any new insights into the origin of the “Fordel” family as per its relationship with Suomi or Scandinavia generally. My working thesis is that Jöns Fordel was a Dane and that he and his family ended up in Stockholm during the latter years of the Kalmar Union as opportunists. I suspect that the reference to “Knut Fordel” in 1485 was a reference to the Finnish Fordel antecedent ‘Jöns’ brother Knut who was a trouble maker. I would be very interested if there was any academically motivated intellectual impetus to further explore these hypotheses. I recognize that I may be intellectually indulgent; however, I remain open and welcome to input. Kiitos.

Cheers,

Pete

[filip]

Some speculations.

The surname of Hans Platz may indicate, that the family originally had Jewish roots. At the time when important people in German towns all had surnames, the Jews, who traditionally had no surnames, could be named by authorities. Platz indicates an individual, who lived around the Town square = ie. der Platz

Two sons of the Mayor Hans Platz became goldsmiths at that time. This further supports the above idea, since quite a few of the early Jews in northern Europe were goldsmiths.

Most prosperous Jews could even rise to the nobility by buying the titles.

What I am interested in is how Brita Henriksdaughter Stork ended up in Turku. One branch of the Storck family seems to have been living in Viljandi Estonia as Mike had found the Storck name in Tallin City Records regarding the heritage case of Micheel Jordan.
The Mayor of Viljandi was X Storck, whose daughter Kristina Storck married the successor of Mr. Storck ie. Mr. Berthold Crüll (who was from Westfalen).
The Storck family seems to have been all around the Baltic sea: as a noble family in Sweden, being one of the mightiest families in Stettin (Gdansk) where their town house and Coat of Arms is still to be seen at the main street, further in Viljandi, Tallinn and Turku.

I know above doesn´t get us further in finding the parents of Hans Platz and Brita Storck or Auctor Duwall, but maybe those families were present at many places at the same time and we are missing this. I don´t know, if the possible Jewish origin gives us anything but it may also be, that the Storck family originally was Jewish, because many of the Jewish families adopted animal names known from their biblical heritage.

Anyway referring to your earlier findings, it is interesting to note, that one of the daughters of Hans Platz got married to an originally Scottish family ie that of Sander Bruun.

One question; the first wife of Hans Platz was Anna the widow of the rich merchant Henrik Schaeffer. Where did he come from ? had he come from the same town as Hans Platz ?

Ps. Pete you referred to Tallin City papers in your writing of 29.7.2011. You had noticed, that the pastor of Narva was mentioned. PLEASE give me details. This must be Erick Falck, whom Governementsekreteraren Paul Falck (Hausen 1900) says to be a son of Johan Falck, whose father Bengt Falck was the son of the first Lutheran Bishop in Sweden Erick Falck. Bengt was beheaded because he was on the side of king Sigismund against Hertig Karl and had stopped the troops of Hertig Karl twice in Ostrobothnia; besides he was a Catholic.
This pastor Eric Falck in Narva had a very famous second wife Katharina Valleriansdaughter, who after Ericks death married two rich merchants in Viborg and became one of the wealthiest and most famous businesswoman of her time. Some books have been written of her life.
Contrary nothing is known of the first marriage of this Pastor. He seems to have been a military priest and it seems like he might have been married to an Anna Envaldsson from Gumboele gård in Sibbo (Sipoo) near Helsinki. This anyway has never been succesfully verified. For example Simon Ericksson Falckenfelt (Ättartavlor) names the Narva pastor as his father but the name of his mother is unknown. So, if any glues could be found in those city papers, please unveil them. If not here, then under a new head line under Erich Falck.

Pss. Fordell.
Pete you may know, that there is a place on the east coast of Scotland named Fordell of Firth. To my recognition this is the place where the known Ostrobothnian/Norrbothnian family had their castle, which later was to become the base of the Hendersson Clan, since that family had become owners of the castle. It seems. that the castle originally is from the Viking era and the name relates to a Viking warrior. The Fordells bore originally another surname and had immigrated from the continent to Fordell of Firth adopting the Fordell name, which then was to be their surname for centuries.

[filip]

Regarding my last message.

Pls. note, that above where I mentioned the Storck familys presence in Gdansk: the town was ofcourse in German language Danzig (not Stettin).

Ps. Turku/Åbo the home town of Hans Platz/Storck had traditionally been commercially connected with Danzig/Gdansk. For example already in late 1470 a ship from Turku arrived in Danzig every third day !
Turku was not so much in connection with Reval/Tallinn or Lübeck, those cities were mainly linked with Wiborg/Viipuri of the towns on the Finnish side.

Thus it would be of interest to investigate the presence of the Stork and Platz families also in Danzig/Gdans. I hope. that someone has connections with researchers there.

[Kimmo Kemppainen]

Hello Peter,
I don't know if you have received the assistance you requested or not but I am now able to help you with this anyway. The Turku court case of 1654 recently became available on the Internet. You will find it right here:

http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=11478649

It is the first case on the open page.

Kimmo Kemppainen

Greetings,

Thank you Kimmo and Ingeborg for your comments. I am still working away on trying to identify the wife of the Konrad Platz who died in Nijmegen in 1628 and who was the object of a Turku court case in 1654. I have requested some assistance in this regard and will be sure to update this forum forthwith when I hear back.

Cheers,

Pete

[petergmdale]

Greetings,

Sorry for the delay in responding. Firstly, thank you Filip for your comments. I have no knowledge of the Jewish community in Finland other than it has always been very small and, as I understand it, there were historically significant restrictions on the activities of Jewish residents in Sweden-Finland. To the extent that the foregoing is true (and I am only relying on what I have read), I highly doubt that Hans Platz was Jewish. My gut feeling is that we will ultimately determine that he was an ethnic “German” who originated in what is present day eastern Holland. However, as others have previously pointed out quite correctly, trying to attribute modern notions of ethnicity and nationality is a somewhat dubious exercise with respect to the past.

As per your query regarding the research kindly provided by Prof. Jüri Kivimäe, I set forth all the information I received in my prior post and, unfortunately, do not have anything further to contribute in this regard.

Lastly, with respect to the Fordell family. I recommend to you the Suku Forum thread regarding this interesting family (see - http://suku.genealogia.fi/showthread.php?t=11806 (http://suku.genealogia.fi/showthread.php?t=11806)).

Kimmo, many thanks for your recent post which I somehow did not receive a Suku Forum alert with respect thereto. My apologies for the delay in responding to you. I am fascinated to learn that the case I have been most interested in is now available for viewing. I am, unfortunately, unable to read it. As I understand it, the 1654 Turku court case dealt with the estate of a Konrad Platz who resided in Nijmegen and who, I understand, died in 1628 and was (I am assuming?) the brother of Hans Platz (Mayor of Turku). Hans Platz’s children were the apparent beneficiaries of this estate. Separate from the foregoing, I have discovered that there was indeed an individual named Coenraad Plas who was the Rentmeester of Nijmegen whose wife Johanna (Jenneke) van Kessel remarried in Nijmegen in 1628. Thus, there is no connection between Johanna van Kessel and Turku other than, perhaps, the fact that she is the wife of Coenraad Plas Rentmeester of Nijmegen who, according to my hypothesis, may be one and the same individual as Konrad Platz whose estate is discussed in the 1654 case. Hence, my interest in seeing if the wife of Konrad Platz, who died in Nijmegen in 1628 and whose estate is the subject of the 1654 case, is identified by name as Johanna van Kessel/Platz or her remarried name (Christoffel) Biesman as this would confirm that he is indeed the same individual as Coenraad Plas. By extension, there was an earlier Coenraad Plas who was also a Rentmeester of Nijmegen and, I propose, may be the father of both Konrad Platz and his brother Hans Platz, Mayor of Turku.

Thus my questions are simply:

1. Is Konrad Platz, who died in 1628 in Nijmegen and whose estate is the subject of a Turku court case in 1654, identified as Hans Platz’s brother; and

2. Is the Nijmegen widow of the aforementioned Konrad Platz, who was a party to the 1654 Turku court case, identified by name and is she Johann van Kessel/Platz or her remarried husband’s name (Christoffel) Biesman?

I welcome any assistance with the foregoing and kiitos!

Cheers,

Pete

[Kimmo Kemppainen]

This time I can give you straight answers. 1. No. 2. No, but it is stated that Konrad's widow had died in 1652 or at least was dead by then.
Kimmo Kemppainen




1. Is Konrad Platz, who died in 1628 in Nijmegen and whose estate is the subject of a Turku court case in 1654, identified as Hans Platz’s brother; and

2. Is the Nijmegen widow of the aforementioned Konrad Platz, who was a party to the 1654 Turku court case, identified by name and is she Johann van Kessel/Platz or her remarried husband’s name (Christoffel) Biesman?

I welcome any assistance with the foregoing and kiitos!

Cheers,

Pete

[petergmdale]

Hi Kimmo (and any others who may be able to assist!),

Many thanks for the information. A few more brief questions, if you don’t mind:

1. What individuals are specifically identified by name in the court record;

2. Are any other individuals referenced but unnamed;

3. Are any relationships among individuals (in 1 and 2 above) stated or inferred; and

4. Lastly, assuming the answer to item 3 is negative, is there any other information to shed light on why the widow of Konrad Platz of Nijmegen was the object or involved in a Turku court case?

Thanks again.

Cheers,

Pete

[Kimmo Kemppainen]

I would naturally have told you if there had been anything else. Only Anders Merthen, Konrad Platz and Gottfried Rosskamp are mentioned by name. Konrad Platz's widow is mentioned but unnamed. Rosskamp had brought some documents regarding the inheritance from Holland. It is not said how Konrad Platz had something to do with Turku. However, it was Anders Merthen who received a judicial document of this event, so he must have had an interest in the matter.
Kimmo Kemppainen


Hi Kimmo (and any others who may be able to assist!),

Many thanks for the information. A few more brief questions, if you don’t mind:

1. What individuals are specifically identified by name in the court record;

2. Are any other individuals referenced but unnamed;

3. Are any relationships among individuals (in 1 and 2 above) stated or inferred; and

4. Lastly, assuming the answer to item 3 is negative, is there any other information to shed light on why the widow of Konrad Platz of Nijmegen was the object or involved in a Turku court case?

Thanks again.

Cheers,

Pete

[Anne C.]

I would naturally have told you if there had been anything else. Only Konrad Platz and Gottfried Rosskamp are mentioned by name. Konrad Platz's widow is mentioned but unnamed. Rosskamp had brought some documents regarding the inheritance from Holland. It is not said how Konrad Platz had something to do with Turku.
Kimmo Kemppainen

Hello,

Is there any possibility for you to quote the full text of the Turku record? I have tried to read it, but I have only been able to decipher a few words.

Best regards,

Anne (also a descendant of Hans Platz)

[Kimmo Kemppainen]

Not really, but I'll do it anyway.
"Anders Merthen received this day a document from the court stating that Conrad Platz in Nimegen Holland has died in 1628 which is stated in the documents that Gottfried Rosskamp had brought with him from Holland, concerning the inheritance of the above mentioned Conrad, and also of his wife, to whom he had left his property in her lifetime, (she) was according to Gottfried Rosskamp deceased in 1652."
Kimmo Kemppainen

Hello,

Is there any possibility for you to quote the full text of the Turku record? I have tried to read it, but I have only been able to decipher a few words.

Best regards,

Anne (also a descendant of Hans Platz)

[Anne C.]

Not really, but I'll do it anyway.
"Anders Merthen received this day a document from the court stating that Conrad Platz in Nimegen Holland has died in 1628 which is stated in the documents that Gottfried Rosskamp had brought with him from Holland, concerning the inheritance of the above mentioned Conrad, and also of his wife, to whom he had left his property in her lifetime, (she) was according to Gottfried Rosskamp deceased in 1652."
Kimmo Kemppainen

Thank you very much.

Anne

[Ingeborg Palmén]

Thank you Kimmo, for the text. I have tried to read it too, and can´t say I have got any further. I think that Merthen gave the court a document stating the facts that etc. Conrad`s wife is not named there (women naturally don´t count, otherwise than in relation to their relatives). Somebody, perhaps the widow has made a will in her/his lifetime. Anyway, no money from Holland.
Probably there is an earlier case, perhaps in Turku or in Oulu, where Elisabeth Platz, or her heirs, in a process regarding her husband`s debts,(one or the other, they both were broke) has tried to refer to the inheritance she was expecting from Holland. In that process there might be described the exakt relationship between Hans and Conrad.
Wishing you all a very cold good night - brr
Ingeborg

[Ingeborg Palmén]

Look at "page" 153 in the Turku court rolls Kimmo refered to. November 20th 1654. "Anders Merthen anhöll om arrest på de penningar som" and then, all of a sudden, my 17th century eyes didn`t work any more. Anyway he speaks of a relative to Trumbel, who was Elisabet Platzes 2 husband, so the debts were Trumbel debts, apparently.
Good night again.
Ingeborg

[petergmdale]

Hi Ingeborg,

Thank you for your posts. Please advise me as to what the implication is of your last post, i.e. “he speaks of a relative to Trumbel, who was Elisabet Platzes 2 husband, so the debts were Trumbel debts, apparently” with respect to the relationship between Konrad Platz and individuals in Finland. I have not yet figured out (I am being obtuse I am sure!) what the relationship is between the prospective inheritance and various debtors. Many thanks.

Regards,

Pete

[TerhiA]

Look at "page" 153 in the Turku court rolls Kimmo refered to. November 20th 1654. "Anders Merthen anhöll om arrest på de penningar som" and then, all of a sudden, my 17th century eyes didn`t work any more. Anyway he speaks of a relative to Trumbel, who was Elisabet Platzes 2 husband, so the debts were Trumbel debts, apparently.
Good night again.
Ingeborg

Is this the text you're referring to:
http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=11478627

Anders Merthen anhölt nu om arrest på de peningar, som Gotfrede-
rich Rosskamp på Jacob Trumbelz wägnar i Holland upburit
hade, så lenge och in till dess han Trumbel sig med honom om
sin Praetension förenadt hade, hwar opå honom lofwades Swar.

[Kimmo Kemppainen]

Well,
Auctor Duvel was deep in debt when he died so his debtors probably sought to get their share of his wife's inheritance. Since Conrad Platz left his property to his wife and since Conrad's closest relatives and heirs seem to have been his brother's (?) children in Finland, it appears likely that Conrad had no direct descendents.

After Auctor Duvel's death his wife Elisabeth Platz had some trouble dealing with the debtors of her late husband. Having dealt with them she was able to marry Jacob Trumbel.

Kimmo Kemppainen

Hi Ingeborg,

Thank you for your posts. Please advise me as to what the implication is of your last post, i.e. “he speaks of a relative to Trumbel, who was Elisabet Platzes 2 husband, so the debts were Trumbel debts, apparently” with respect to the relationship between Konrad Platz and individuals in Finland. I have not yet figured out (I am being obtuse I am sure!) what the relationship is between the prospective inheritance and various debtors. Many thanks.

Regards,

Pete

[Ingeborg Palmén]

Thank you, Terhi, for the exakt text. As you can see, I´m a beginner when it comes to reading older texts. - Somehow I read "wägnar" as swägerska, (sister-in-law)and could not make head or tail of it. - Untill now, my reading has been "item 1 koo, item 1 soo" (for Pete: replace the second o with w, and you´ll be able to read old swedish)

Pete, Kimmo has already answered your question about how Trumbel came into this story. Auctor Duvals daughter Helena Duval is also known as Elin Trumbel, her stepfather´s name.
I still think there must be an earlier case where the relation Elisabeth Platz - Conrad Platz is described. It seems that the "tout Turku" knew that there was a dutch inheritance coming from the Platz side of the family. Anders Merthen knew about it, since he tried to sequestrate the money. - Beside the point, Merthen was an ancestor of my son -in -law.
Best wishes,
Ingeborg

[petergmdale]

Greetings,

Just a short note to update that I heard back from Ms. Judith van Santen, with the Regionaal Archief Nijmegen (Nijmegen Regional Archives), who advised me in an e-mail dated February 23, 2012, in response to my inquiry of the archives regarding any burial records that may exist for Coenraad Plas and Jenneke van Kessel, as follows:

“Unfortunately, I couldn't find any death or burial record of Coenraad Plas or Jenneke van Kessel in our easily accessible records. I tried to find some records on our website www.nijmegen.nl/archief (http://www.nijmegen.nl/archief). I entered the names 'Kessel AND Biesman' in the field 'vrij zoeken' (in the Digitale Studiezaal) and I got some hits, for example the marriage between Van Kessel and Biesman in 1628. In the Alderman Records I found a record in which Coenraet Plas and Jenneken van Kessel were mentioned as a couple in 1626.”

I found this interesting as it confirms that Coenraad Plas, the Rentmeester of Nijmegen, was alive in 1626. We know that his wife remarried to Christoffel Biesman in 1628. This would suggest that Coenraad died between 1626-1628. I believe that it would be quite a coincidence if this was not the Konrad Platz of Nijmegen who died in 1628 and was the subject of the 1654 Turku court case.

With the foregoing in mind, I also remind this thread that there was another Coenraad Plas who was a Rentmeester of Nijmegen who died in 1613. It is not too much of a stretch to suggest that this may be the later Coenraad’s father/uncle, etc. What is missing is the nature of the relationship between Coenraad/Konrad and Hans Platz. However, I feel fairly confident that, as they were contemporaries, they were likely brothers.

Time to find some more information on the Coenraad Plas who died in 1613!

Cheers,

Pete

[petergmdale]

Greetings,

Two more items that I found interesting as I was playing around on the Nijmegen Archives website. I found reference to a document that includes both Coenraad Plas and Jenneke Kessel dated July 3, 1627, i.e. the year prior to her remarriage with Christoffel Biesman. The second interesting item is that in this document, and in a few other references, Coenraad’s last name is spelt “Plasz”. I am not sure if this means anything. I am very familiar with the utter lack of consistency in the spelling of English words and names during this same time period. I assume it was likewise in Holland/Sweden-Finland, etc. However, I wonder if this is further evidence that Coenraad Plas is one and the same as the enigmatic Konrad Platz of 1654 Turku court fame.

(see - http://studiezaal.nijmegen.nl/ran/_resultaat.aspx?invalshoek=22849198&invalshoeknaam=GENERIEK&aantalperpagina=20&uitgebreid_zoeken=true&cmveldValue_VrijXXzoeken=plasz&cmveldName_VrijXXzoeken=VrijXXzoeken&sortering=SCORE (http://studiezaal.nijmegen.nl/ran/_resultaat.aspx?invalshoek=22849198&invalshoeknaam=GENERIEK&aantalperpagina=20&uitgebreid_zoeken=true&cmveldValue_VrijXXzoeken=plasz&cmveldName_VrijXXzoeken=VrijXXzoeken&sortering=SCORE))

As always, I welcome any thoughts and thank you for your assistance.

Cheers,

Pete

[petergmdale]

Greetings,

Please find below the first 2 reports I have received by e-mail from Dr. Marc Jarzebowski (jarzebowski*taxodium.eu) re the Platz family of Berk. I will keep this thread posted re future reports.

Cheers,

Pete

********

March 28, 2013 - I have checked about the (surviving) Berk church records, which do not start until 1721 for baptisms. But I am still in the progress of researching the history of the parish and of trying to find other possible source material, which might help to get information about the Platz family as early as in the late 16th or early 17th centuries. For this I am still waiting for printed material via long distance loan, which is not available in Berlin. I expect the books to be here in 2 or 3 weeks time.

April23, 2013 - I have now received some material on Berk, namely a listing of Berk church records with names in alphabetical order. The title is:

Ortsfamilienbuch Berk 1725-1899, ed. by Josef Gietzen.

Firstof all: there is no Platz/Plass family inside (or similar spellings), but the records do not start until 1725.

The book has a valuable introduction on the history of the parish.

Berk became an independent parish in 1803. It´s earlier history is not quite clear. Some sources mention an "old parish Berk", but this does certainly not refer to an independent parish. It is most likely that Berk belonged to the parish of Kronenburg/Cronenburg until 1803. Currently I am checking if Kronenburg records from the 16th. cent. have survived.

I´ll keep you posted

[Timo W]

http://www.adelsvapen.com/wiki/images/3/3a/F_064.jpg


http://www.adelsvapen.com/genealogi/Duwall_nr_64


http://www.adelsvapen.com/wiki/images/d/d8/Duwall_nr_241.jpg

http://www.adelsvapen.com/genealogi/Duwall_nr_241

[petergmdale]

A further update from Dr.Jarzebowski:

“May 7, 2013 - I have received mail from the responsible archive in Bruehl, telling us that no Kronenburg records have survived older than 1657.

In the online research system for all major archives in the state of Nordrhein-Westfalen (http://www.archive.nrw.de/LAV_NRW/jsp/erweitertSuche.jsp (http://www.archive.nrw.de/LAV_NRW/jsp/erweitertSuche.jsp)) I have found only very few documents relating to Berk. The closest match is a charter from 1568, in which Berk and some inhabitants are mentioned, but no Plass (see attached file).

I have also contacted the local village archive for information, but no response yet. And I have asked them for a copyof the village-chronicle published in 2002. As the printed number of copies was very small, I have no yet been able to get hold of a copy. I hope that they can send me one or can provide me with some info about older records concerning Berk.

I´ll keep you posted.”

Cheers,

Pete

[petergmdale]

A last update from Dr. Jarzebowski:

“May 22, 2013 - I have now received a response from the local village archive. They hold no records from the 16th century, and they could not send me a copy of the village chronicle which I have mentioned. I think we have reached an end here. If you are interested in the later history of Berk, I can continue to try to get a copy of the chronicle, but it is more than unlikely that it contains anything relevant for your question.”

Cheers,

Pete

[Anne C.]

A last update from Dr. Jarzebowski:

“May 22, 2013 - I have now received a response from the local village archive. They hold no records from the 16th century, and they could not send me a copy of the village chronicle which I have mentioned. I think we have reached an end here. If you are interested in the later history of Berk, I can continue to try to get a copy of the chronicle, but it is more than unlikely that it contains anything relevant for your question.”

Hi Pete,

Thanks a lot for your efforts. I share those views on Berk's later history. I don't think it is of any practical interest.

All the best,

Anne

[petergmdale]

Greetings,

I had a wonderful trip to Suomi for 2 & ½ week last month and this and managed to travel all over the country - it’s a beautiful country with wonderful people. I was fortunate to visit Helsinki, Turku, Savonlinna (I saw the opera Macbeth), Kuopio, Lapinlahti, Iisalmi, Oulu, Kemi, Tornio, Rovaniemi, Leminka, Saloinen, Pyhajoki, Kalajoki, Kokkola, Pietarsaari, Vaasa, Vammala, Punkalaidun and finally back to Helsinki. Lots of sight seeing and visiting friends & very hospitable relatives. Thank you to Lasse and Ingeborg for meeting with me in Helsinki.

A brief question, has anyone identified specific primary or, alternatively, authoritative secondary sources, which state the name of Hans Platz’s – Mayor of Turku – d. c. 1620 – wife as Brita Henriksd Stork? There has been considerable discussion regarding the ambiguity surrounding Hans’ 2 or 3 wives and I was curious if any primary sources have identified Brita specifically. Kiitos!

Cheers,

Pete

[piaj]

Hi, Thank you all for this information. I have just discovered that I am too a decendant of Elin Auttensdotter Duwal and her husband Isak Hansson Sinius. I decend from their son Isak and his wife Matleena Eriksdotter Cajanus, their daughter Matleena married Juho Pekanpoika Schroderus. Their son Juho Juhonpoika Schroderus married Riitta Matintytar Rongen, and their daughter Margreta Juhontytar Schroderus married Thomas Huotari who are my great great great great grandparents. Everybody, of course, knows that going back generations from Elin Duwal's husband Sinius you end up finding Eric and his son Osten Sursill as your ancestors.
Eric SURSILL(Angerman) 1480-1550/53 Sweden Umea
Osten Eerikinpoika SURSILL1520 Sweden Umea spouse Matleena Eerikintytar Sursill 1535 Vaasa Finland
Katariina Osten's daughter SURSILL 1552-1614 – 3 husbands: Lars Sinius 1556, Hannu Sinius 1582 and Mats Larsson Grandberg
Hannu Larson SINIUS born before 1582 died 1645 Oulu spouse Anna Hannuntytar SINIUS died 4.12.1675
Iisakki Hannunpoika SINIUS and Elin Auttensdr. DUWAL
I hope I got all the facts correct, only recently got this information from a person who is my 7th cousin, and it was a bit overwhelming with a lot of generations going back to Sursill, including siblings, so got bit confused at times. This is all very interesting, and I will try to study my roots more. Thanks again to everyone for sharing the information you have on this forum. Kind regards Pia

[filip]

Hi all you interested in the Platz family.

I suggest somebody takes a look at the records in Wertheim Germany. There was a well known family Platz, many of them being mayors in the city. For example Hans Platz 1510 - 1565.

Maybe some of the family members moved about 300 kilometers along the Rhein and ended up in the Netherlands and ofcourse were named Plas there.
Some relatives could have emigrated directly to Turku.

The family was specialised in tanning (Rotgerberhandwerk). The import to Turku of such items could have been in great demand, because Turku (Åbo) at that time was the second important city in Sweden and one of the centers of soldiers. The soldiers were in great need of excellent leather for the boots of soldiers , that should both be wear resistant and have a nice reddish colour; important at least for the parades.

If the above Hans Platz would be the grandfather of "our" Hans Platz in Turku, then we also know the previous generation ie. Caspar Platz and his wife Magdalena Herz.

Ps. As i have remarked previously, the Storck family was very prominent in what we now call Gdansk and if I remember correctly in Viljandi , Estonia too. Hope somebody have time to investigate existing archives there or in Germany to find Henrik Storck..

Pss. Fordell seems to have been active in Fordell of Firth in Scotland long ago (1400-) and I vaguelly remember somebody having found knowledge of them having originally emigrated to Fordell of Firth from Normandy in France. Thus they may have settled in Normandy already during the Viking times and may indeed have had roots in Scandinavia.
It seems to me, that some Vikig families have continued their far reaching actvities also after the high time of the Vikings, Fordells may have been one such family.

[Anne C.]

Hello,

If this can be of any help, we know from the archives from Nijmegen, in the Netherlands, that Conrad Platz (Conraet Plass), the brother of Turku's Hans Platz, came from Berck (today integrated to Dahlem, Nordrhein-Westfalen, Germany).

This information is to be found in Conrads first marriage (Huwelijksregister Nederduits‑Gereformeerde gemeente Nijmegen, RBS 1172/034) 28.2.1598.

Conrad was married three times and died between October 1626 and July 1627. He was Nijmegen's "rentmeester".

[LOE]

Hi everybody,

Signature Benedicto made me aware of this discussion. My subject is the Facht family and 1654 Petter Facht was claiming a share of the Platz inheritance. Unfortunately I am now convinced that he was not an heir, he just wanted a claim on Rosskamp secured by a share of this inheritance. Before coming to that conclusion I looked into the inevitable continuation of the Platz case. There is a whole lot – more than 20 pages and several pending cases in higher court (Hovrätten) as far as I have checked (1655-1660). These guys loved the game so this could go on “for ever” (Facht had several long cases, the longest one lasted for 27 years). In the meantime the parties died (like Facht and Rosskamp) and new ones enter the scene.

Since these people are no longer any of my relatives and Petter Facht alone has produced more than 200 records, I am not so anxious about transcribing all this stuff, but I may assist in specific questions. Below I am giving you links to what I have found with my abstracts attached (including 1654 for completeness). As said, there may be more to find. The text itself is straight forward, the transactions and implications definitely not.

The p numbers are for paginas, the b ones for photo numbers in respective volume.

1654 http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=11478644 (http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=11478644)


p274 15 nov b151 Anders Marthen was granted arrest of 671 Dlr with Gotfrederich Roßkamp of the money that late Alexander Bruun’s widow in Kiemi was entitled to of the inheritance that Roßkamp on her behalf had received in Holland, in addition demanding explanation by the court.
p279 20 nov b153 Anders Marthen was granted arrest of the money that Roßkamp on Jacob Trumbel’s behalf had received in Holland, was promised an answer from Trumbel.
p310 6 december b169 Anders Marthen was granted arrest of 554 Dlr with Gotfrederich Roßkamp of the money that late Author Duwel’s widow was entitled to of the inheritance that Roßkamp had received in Holland
p310 6 december b169 Mårthen Köpner was granted arrest of 190 Dlr with Gotfrederich Roßkamp of the inheritance that Roßkamp on behalf of Dn Johan’s wife in Kiemi had received in Holland, until they had come to an agreement of the claim by her late father in law, Mathias Hoppe.
p310 6 december b169 Peter Facht was granted arrest of 558 Dlr with Gotfrederich Roßkamp of the inheritance after late Conradt Platz that Roßkamp had received in Holland and late Alexander Bruun and Hans Platz should be entitled to on there quota, until their heirs had come to an agreement with him (Facht) about his claim for a debt of theirs.
p320 9 dec b174 Anders Marthen received a certificate that Conradt Platz in Holland had died in Nimrägen [sic] in 1628, according to the documents that Gottfrederich Roßkamp had brought with him from Holland, regarding the inheritance of said Conradt, and that his wife, to whom he had bequethed his remaining property in her lifetime, had died in 1652.
1655 http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=11478456 (http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=11478456)

pp266-269 21 nov bb155-156 A summary followed by a sentance in the case between Jacob Trumbel, inhabitant of Uhlå [Uleåborg], and Roskamp about the inheritance from Conradt Platz. On the 8th of November Trumbel is making his case. Rosskamp should have acted on his behalf and deliver the money to him in Stockholm without any court proceedings, brought it however to Åbo, where indeed there was a case at court, causing him to hastily leave his ship and people in Uhlå and go to Åbo to defend his property. He is demanding compensation for large expenses and damages. On the 10th of November Rosskamp was excipating against Trumbel’s submission, claiming that the inheritance was for late Hans Platz’ children and not exceeding 1400 Dlr. He is also claiming that Trumbel’s wife’s former husband, late Author Duwel, had received 200 Dlr in advance of the inheritance 1635 in Amsterdam, pawning inventories [lengthy and complicated accounts of these 200 Dlr]. Rosskamp is demanding 200 Dlr for his efforts and expenditures. On the 12th of November Jacob Trumbel responded with as lengthy explanations in opposition to Rosskamps version, referring to a protocol at Åbo court 1637 [13 dec]. Late Lydke Caloander was referred to as the representative of all creditors in late Duwel’s estate. Were mentioned that other creditors in Duwel’s estate having made statements. The court could not arrive at a full resolution. Rosskamp is reminded not to transfer any of the inheritance to Dn Johan in Kemi, awaiting complete resolution.
pp289-296 5 dec bb166-170 A summary followed by a sentance in the case between Anders Marthen, Mrs Anna Kramer’s, Mrs Brijta Matzdott. and Jacob Trumbel with Dn Johan Johannis in Kiemi. On the 14th of November the widow of late Luitke Caloander, Mrs Anna Kramer’s, is opposing a claim by Trumbel for a debt of 1636 by her late husband on behalf of late Author Duwel to be paid in Holland and so on…. On the 17th of November the representative of the widow of late Matz Hoppe, Mrs Brijta Matzdotter, Olaus Carlstadius, is making a statement, among other things mentioning a citation of Dn Johan Johannis, vicar of Kemi, by the widow at higher court, Hovrätten, referring to a written obligation by late Alexander Bruun on April 6th 1634 regarding a debt to late Hoppe. Is mentioned one son in law of Hoppe’s, Mårthen Bakare. On the 21st of November Anders Marthen complained that he had had no assistance in acquiring, on behalf of his wife, a claim on Jacob Trumbel, that she was entitled to, demanding 554 Dlr plus expenditures. He is mentioning that he had brought his case to Hovrätten on the 13th of November, they however having referred it back to Rådhusrätten. He has also cited Dn Johan’s wife in Kemi court procedings on the 1st of February, was however rejected back to Åbo, the right jurisdiction. On the 28th of November Jacob Trumbel responded to Anders Marthen and maintained that he and his wife supported by the document of December 13th 1637 were free of debt. On the 3d of December Jacob Trumbel responded to the claims by late Hoppe’s widow, referring to a decision by the court of July 5th 1641, that is supporting his position. He is mentioning that late Matz Hoppe had accepted a silver sheat and a skirt as full compensation. He is referring to Dn Johan’s wife, Kirstin Platz. On the 5th of December the representative of late Matz Hoppe’s widow is responding, explaining who had said what and why, informing that Henrich Platz, brother of said Kirstin Platz, had sold his share to Peter Facht [!]. The court is then deliberating and stating its understanding of the case, then issuing a sentence. In that Conradt is referred to as an uncle [father’s brother] of Dn Johan’s and Jacob Trumbel’s wives. On December 8th 1655 the sentence is produced. The court is presenting its reasoning and motives, arriving at a resolution. It is a very clear and good sentence – I am impressed !
pp318-321 12 dec bb181-182 Summary and sentence in the case between Jacob Trumbel and the creditors of late Author Duwel’s and late Alexander Bruun’s, and Gotfrederich Roßkamp. On the 8th of December appeared Jacob Trumbel on behalf of his brother in law, Gabriel Platz, son of late Hans Platz, and demanded that his share of the dutch inheritance, as well as his sisters, Hans’ and Dn Johan’s wife in Kiemi [?], Gotfrederich Roßkamp’s on behalf of Peter Facht, should be honoured. Gabriel is at war and there is nothing to suggest that he is not alive. On the 12th of December Rosskamp is responding to Trumbel’s claim and informing that Gabriel’s brother Henrich had sold his share, one third of the inheritance, to Peter Facht, who had later transported the right to Roßkamp. He is also explaining that Gabriel had been absent for 20 years and must be dead. On this ground he is rejecting Trumbel’s claim. The court was divided and the jury proceded to vote on the sentence. On the 12th of December 1655 the sentence is produced. As before a very clear and reasonable statement is produced. Since there is no evidence of Gabriel’s death, he is assumed to be alive. A detail is revealed: the 200 Dlr, that Duwel had used in Holland, were paid to one Elsa Kalderat. Roßkamp appealed to higher court, Hovrätten.
p324 12 dec b184 Jacob Trumbel appeared at court and declared that he and Roßkamp had come to an agreement a couple of days ago regarding a potential future inheritance [!] after one Timan Platz, at a price of 1000 pounds of tobacco. However Roßkamp the day after had changed his mind. Jacob Trumbel is then claiming the share of Gabriel Platz , which claim is accepted given a bail for the case that Gabriel himself or his children would later appear and claim the same.
1656 http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=11478268 (http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=11478268)

p149 27 jun b83 Anders Marthen demanded arrest on his 671 Dlr of the Dutch inheritance from the wife of Dn Johan i Kiemo, her entitled from the possession of Roßkamp. The court is telling him that he will have to wait for the resolution by higher court, at which point all the creditors will be summoned.
1657 http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=11478099 (http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=11478099)

Nothing about the Platz case.
1658 http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=11477817 (http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=11477817)

pp103-107 3 april bb65-67 On the 27th of February Anders Marthen claimed 554 Dlr after late Author Duwel, referring to obligations by Alexander Bruun of October 16th 1637 and February 4th 1632 respectively. Claimed 1493 Dlr from Dn Johan in Kiemi. The court is recalling the calculation made by late Lutke Colander 26th of September 1646. The son of said Colander, postmaster Bertil Colander, was summoned to witness on any books preserved from his father’s time. Bertil answers that all such papers were consumed by the fire 1656. Late Bruun’s books however were in the court house, were consulted. Was found that he had paid with diamond rings among other things. Without telling about these books Anders Marthen was asked if he had got payment, which he denied, was then confronted with the books, at which point he was suddenly struck by amnesia. On March 29th Anders Marthen presented new accounts produced by his assistant. After these murky stories the court proceded to vote. Clearly presenting their arguments the court is grinding Marthen’s claims to crumbles. He is immediately appealing to higher court.
No resolutions on the Platz-målet Platz case at higher court.
1659 http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=11477744 (http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=11477744)

Nothing about the Platz case
1660 http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=11477467 (http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=11477467)
a. Nothing about the Platz case

[petergmdale]

Hi Lars,

Wow – this is fascinating! I look forward to reviewing my notes and am excited to hear what the other participants of this thread think or can make out of your research. Many thanks for taking the time to contribute this information – it is greatly appreciated.

Cheers,

Pete

[Anne C.]

This is all very interesting. Thank you!

I am a bit at loss about Alexander Bruun. Could someone please remind me what is exactly his connection with the Platz family?

Anne

[Jouni Kaleva]

This is all very interesting. Thank you!

I am a bit at loss about Alexander Bruun. Could someone please remind me what is exactly his connection with the Platz family?

Anne
AB was the first husband of Christin Hansdr Platz. He died in 1638. She was remarried to Johan Johannis Somerus/Tuderus, vicar in Maaria parish (in Turku) at the time of wedding, abt 1643. He moved to Kemi parish in 1648.

[Anne C.]

AB was the first husband of Christin Hansdr Platz. He died in 1638. She was remarried to Johan Johannis Somerus/Tuderus, vicar in Maaria parish (in Turku) at the time of wedding, abt 1643. He moved to Kemi parish in 1648.

OK, thanks!

[LOE]

Hi again,

By pure coinsidence I just encountered a piece of information, that you may or may not have. In Fogderäkenskaper, Uppbördslängd för Älvsborgs lösen i Åbo (1614 - 1619) (483Ba), p17v http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=1719822 (http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=1719822)

there is a record about Sanner brun. The remark is interesting: är bliffuen dödh och Hustrun dragen till Tysklandh [deceased, his wife has moved? to Germany].Since this is an account record, it must mean that the wife, who should otherwise have taken over the responsibility for the taxation, is not reachable for the time being. One can imagine, that a widow already then, sought comfort with her relatives.

For what it might be worth,

Lars-Olov

[Jouni Kaleva]

Hi again,

By pure coinsidence I just encountered a piece of information, that you may or may not have. In Fogderäkenskaper, Uppbördslängd för Älvsborgs lösen i Åbo (1614 - 1619) (483Ba), p17v http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=1719822 (http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=1719822)

there is a record about Sanner brun. The remark is interesting: är bliffuen dödh och Hustrun dragen till Tysklandh [deceased, his wife has moved? to Germany].Since this is an account record, it must mean that the wife, who should otherwise have taken over the responsibility for the taxation, is not reachable for the time being. One can imagine, that a widow already then, sought comfort with her relatives.

For what it might be worth,

Lars-Olov
This here document is from 1614-1619. It is a well established fact, that Sander Bruun in discussion died in 1638. So this is somebody else - father, perhaps?

[Benedictus]

Käsitänkö oikein, että Kemin kirkkoherra Johannes Someruksen vaimon Kirstin Platzin appi oli Mathias Hoppe?

late Alexander Bruun’s widow in Kiemi
Dn Johan’s wife in Kiemi had received in Holland, until they had come to an agreement of the claim by her late father in law, Mathias Hoppe.

the widow of late Matz Hoppe, Mrs Brijta Matzdotter,

[LOE]

1654 6 december p310 b169 Mårthen Köpner bekom arrest på 190 dahl. Kopp M:tt af dhet arff som Gotfrederich Roßkamp i Hålland på H:r Johans i Kemi Hustrus wägnar emoottaget hafwer och det så lenge och intill des hon sig medh honom Mårthen om sin S. Swärfaders Mathias Hoppes gieldzfordran föreenadt och Rätten sig der å wijdare förklaradt hafwer.

1655 5 december p290 b167 ….Den 17 Dito [Nov] Inlade S. Matz Hoppes Effterlefwerskas Hust. Brijta Matzdotters fullmechtig Olaus Carlstadius Copia af en Citation, som be:te Enkia ßig förmått hade uthi den Högl. Kongl. Hoffrätt til H:r Johan Johannis Kyrckieherden uthi Kemi här att inställa en fullmechtig, som henne til Lag och Rätta swara skulle; Såsom och insinuerade han fullmachten som Enkian honom gifwit hade denne Saak att uthföra och der hoos angaaf Rätten hafwa att see af S. Alexander Bruuns Uthgifne Obligation dat: Åboo den 6 Aprilis A:o 1634, hurusåsom han med sin Hustrus Samptyckie hade bestått sig wara skyldig S. Matz Hoppe richtig gield 190 dal. och lofwat wilja den med Interesse fram för all annor gield, uthan någon rättegångh betahla, hwar effter han sade honom Alexander wara straxt död blefwen och lembnadt Hustru och Barn effter Sig uthi stoor fattigdom, då han förmeente S. Matz Hoppe hafwa hafft fog och skiähl effter Obligations lydelse att träda til S. Alexanders qwarlefda egendom och fram för alle de andre Creditorerne giöra sig der af betalt, som doch för sin gode wilja och Enkians wiße försäkringar bleef i rustningen? så lenge han lefde. Anbelangande det hon S. Alexanders Effterlefwerska schal hafwa Updragit alle Creditorerne all sin ägendom förr än hon trädde i Ächtenskap med sin nuwarande Man H:r Johan i Kemi, så sade han S. Matz Hoppes arfwingar der ibland icke förståås, efftersom han hade, som förb:t är, kunnat giöra sig betalt af ägendohmen förr än den Creditorerne updragen bleef, det han sade honom eij welat giöra, som hölt sig wid Enckians lyffte att han af arfwet, som förwäntades ifrån Hålland skulle richtigt betalt blifwa; Hwarföre och såsom Hon S. Alexanders Effterlefwerska wid sit afreesande med sin Man H:r Johan til Norreboten hade tilsagdt S. Hoppes Måg Mårthen Bakare detsamma, ath arfwet nu ankommitt war; Altså anhölt han det hon Sal. Hoppes Effterlefwerscha som war fattig och ålderstigen, måtte uthan någre fåfenga inwändningar och wijdare Uppehåldning, til sin rätt förhulpen blifwa, Han insinuerade och Obligationen på de 190 Dlr som S. Alexander hade förplichtat Sig på Ähra och redeligheet för all annor gield uthan någon rättegång att erleggia och betahla, som i samma Obligation wijdare förmähles, den med inlagan och förbe:te Copia sampt hans fulmacht, finns ad acta.
Den 21 Novembris…

As you can see, this process is supported by bunches of documents Ad acta. These often contain more detail and they are all signed by the parties, often stamped. Normally these acts were filed attached to the protocols, later on archives may have assembled them into separate volumes. By protocol I then mean the original one, the so called concept. What is available on the web are the renovations (~neat copies) that all lower courts had to send to the Hovrätt. I have not yet been to the Åbo archives, but I know that at least a series of concept books are preserved at Åbo Stadsarkiv. Regarding the acts the answers from the archive are quite confusing, so someone has to go there and check what is available in the books or in a separate series called Allegat. In Swedish archives I have found extraordinary stuff interfoliated with the protocols.

[Anne C.]

1655 5 december p290 b167 … hwar effter han sade honom Alexander wara straxt död blefwen och lembnadt Hustru och Barn effter Sig uthi stoor fattigdom
If I understand correctly, Alexander Bruun left a wife and a child. The wife is Christin Hansdr Platz, but who is the child? Does anyone know?

[LOE]

Please note that Barn may be plural, i e children. Those days, plural is most probable.

[Anne C.]

Please note that Barn may be plural, i e children. Those days, plural is most probable.
I understand. I unfortunately don't speak Swedish, so it is a bit difficult for me. Thanks.

The question remains the same: do we know anything about Bruun's children?

[Jouni Kaleva]

Käsitänkö oikein, että Kemin kirkkoherra Johannes Someruksen vaimon Kirstin Platzin appi oli Mathias Hoppe?

late Alexander Bruun’s widow in Kiemi
Dn Johan’s wife in Kiemi had received in Holland, until they had come to an agreement of the claim by her late father in law, Mathias Hoppe.

the widow of late Matz Hoppe, Mrs Brijta Matzdotter,

As became evident from the next message here by LOE, Matthias Hoppe was the father-in-law of Mårthen Köpner (also mentioned as Mårthen Bakare), who was claiming from Bruuns widow Christin Platz (or from her present husband Johan Tuderus) the loan which Alexander Bruun had received from Matthias Hoppe in 1634, and promised to pay back before any claims by any other debtors.

[Jouni Kaleva]

I understand. I unfortunately don't speak Swedish, so it is a bit difficult for me. Thanks.

The question remains the same: do we know anything about Bruun's children?
I have some citations about Alexander Bruuns inheritance, which was invented and listed in "Åbo stads dombok" 4.7.1638. The property was valued for 103 dalers whereas he was debted to a Jochim Libstorph for the value of 198 dalers, alone. So really his widow Christin was stripped to bareness by the creditors.

Perhaps one could find some mention about the couple´s children, in that resolution in the Dombok?

[LOE]

This is what I found in 1638:

1638
24 Januarij p31 b25 [Alexander Bruun still alive] Sander Bruun required a testimony by the court that last summer he had got a note to Grull’s widow, Mrs Margareta Marthens, that within six weeks she had to present her grounds for her late husband’s not having honoured his handwriting, for which he had to pay Wellam Brun. He got his testimony.

9 Aprilis p74 b51 [Alexander Bruun still alive] Alexander Brun now presented his claim that Hartwick Knutßon owed him some debt, for which he saw no other means to be satisfied than to get the lot in Clöstret [the upscale part of Åbo]

27 Junij p195 b111 [Alexander Bruun not alive] Sander Brun’s widow requires the court to nominate trustees to make an inventory of her late husband’s remains.

[This should be the result:]
4 Julij Nothing about Alexander Brun found in the [renovated] court records. Have you seen it in the concept book or in
Hästesko, Albert: Bidrag till Åbo stads historia. Ser.1.XIII,Utdrag ur Åbo stads dombok 1638 (Helsingfors 1905) ? A problem with these authors is that they do not distinguish between these sources, even mix material from Kämnärsrätten and from Rådstuvurätten, and exclude ”less important stuff” without mentioning. If anybody cares to visit the City archives of Åbo’s, the signum of the concept book is BIa:10.

31 Octob: p324 b178 Late Alexander Brun’s widow Mrs Kärstin Hansdotter Platz presented a petition meaning, that, since she every day is squeezed and dunned by her late husband’s creditors, leaving her no rest, she pled to the court to entrust all her husbands remains to the creditors, nothing concealed, on her oath if required.

[Jouni Kaleva]

[This should be the result:]
4 Julij Nothing about Alexander Brun found in the [renovated] court records. Have you seen it in the concept book or in
Hästesko, Albert: Bidrag till Åbo stads historia. Ser.1.XIII,Utdrag ur Åbo stads dombok 1638 (Helsingfors 1905) ? A problem with these authors is that they do not distinguish between these sources, even mix material from Kämnärsrätten and from Rådstuvurätten, and exclude ”less important stuff” without mentioning. If anybody cares to visit the City archives of Åbo’s, the signum of the concept book is BIa:10.
.
I picked this information from Hästesko. I don´t think he took it out of thin air, so it should be found in the concept book?

PS: Sander and Wellam would be brothers?

[LOE]

1639

23 Martij p80 b52 On that day a note was written to the court delegates Hans Hanßon and Jacob Wolle Jr, to accept wardship for late Willhelm Brun’s remaining minor children.

5 Julij p217 b124 Late Alexander Brun’s widow now supplicated that, since she had before entrusted the creditors with her [sic] property and on a daily basis many of them, one or the other, would dun her for the debt of her late husband, causing her poverty and great misery, the court would make an inventory and then distribute the lot among the creditors to the extent that it suffice. She got acceptance of that proposition and was required to bring to the court whatever there was available of the remains as invented, which she also did.

[Sinilakki]

Greetings,

I had a wonderful trip to Suomi for 2 & ½ week last month and this and managed to travel all over the country - it’s a beautiful country with wonderful people. I was fortunate to visit Helsinki, Turku, Savonlinna (I saw the opera Macbeth), Kuopio, Lapinlahti, Iisalmi, Oulu, Kemi, Tornio, Rovaniemi, Leminka, Saloinen, Pyhajoki, Kalajoki, Kokkola, Pietarsaari, Vaasa, Vammala, Punkalaidun and finally back to Helsinki. Lots of sight seeing and visiting friends & very hospitable relatives. Thank you to Lasse and Ingeborg for meeting with me in Helsinki.

A brief question, has anyone identified specific primary or, alternatively, authoritative secondary sources, which state the name of Hans Platz’s – Mayor of Turku – d. c. 1620 – wife as Brita Henriksd Stork? There has been considerable discussion regarding the ambiguity surrounding Hans’ 2 or 3 wives and I was curious if any primary sources have identified Brita specifically. Kiitos!

Cheers,

Pete

Even though Pete's question is few years old I would also like to see primary sources for the wives of Hans Platz. Does anyone have more knowledge on them?

Pormestari Hans Platzin vaimoihin liittyvät alkuperäislähteet tulisi tosiaan nostaa esille ja tarkempaan tarkasteluun vähintään sekaannusten poissulkemiseksi. Niiden avulle pystyisimme myös mahdollisesti etsimään sukujuuria näille vaimoille.

[petergmdale]

I continue to struggle to source any primary evidence that specifically identifies Hans Platz’s wife Brita Henriksd Stork by name.

I’m curious if Lars-Olov has happened across the Platz family in any additional research. I found his earlier contribution fascinating!

Any other Platz, Duvall or Stork family updates or information would be most welcome on my end.

Wishing all contributors a healthy & productive 2015.

Cheers,

Pete

Even though Pete's question is few years old I would also like to see primary sources for the wives of Hans Platz. Does anyone have more knowledge on them?

Pormestari Hans Platzin vaimoihin liittyvät alkuperäislähteet tulisi tosiaan nostaa esille ja tarkempaan tarkasteluun vähintään sekaannusten poissulkemiseksi. Niiden avulle pystyisimme myös mahdollisesti etsimään sukujuuria näille vaimoille.

[petergmdale]

Greetings,

Just a brief note to follow-up on my correspondence below. Any primary evidence at all of Brita Henriksd (Stork)’s parentage or confirmation of her identity would be most appreciated.

Cheers,

Pete

[Kimmo Kemppainen]

Yeah,
it can be quite frustrating to wait for the information to come forth. Basically we need to do just two things. Firstly, we need the citations of the old family books that mention Brita Stork. Secondly, we need to look up the relevant documents.

If someone can tell which documents are cited by the family books, it may not take long to find the documents. If the citations are missing altogether, it may take a while before we can find the documents.
Kimmo Kemppainen

Greetings,

Just a brief note to follow-up on my correspondence below. Any primary evidence at all of Brita Henriksd (Stork)’s parentage or confirmation of her identity would be most appreciated.

Cheers,

Pete

[LOE]

I have not payed attention to this thread for the last couple of months. But to Pete’s question I must answer No, I have not knowingly come across these family names. I do have a tip though. Very often, if not normally, there was an alphabetic index at the beginning of a court records volume, concept version as well as renovation. At least all major cases are mentioned there, ordered after the citing party (thus you have to look through the whole index and look for responding parties at the end of the lines). This index should be readable even for non Swedish speaking people. Once there is a finding, someone knowledgable in Swedish could take a closer look at the proceedings. There are a few things to remember. The index is ordered after given name, not after family name. The records were kept as they moved forward, so one person could appear more than once and at any location under the Lit in question. E g my guy Peter Facht would appear under Lit P. Married women are often, but not always, presented under their [late] husband’s name, after a couple of years as a widow they tend to return to their maiden name. So for instance Peter Fachts enkia [widow] under P, later appearing as Hustru [Mrs] Sophia Henrichsdotter under S. Had she remarried, she would have appeared under the name of her current husband.

Earlier we touched upon the subject of probates. For the time period that we are discussing the probates preserved are bound at the end of the court records volume, concept version. Some of these have been interesting for some author, like Hästesko, and transcripted into a book. But there are certainly probates that have not made it to any book and I suspect that the transcripts are not exact or complete either. Someone living nearby could pay a visit at the
Åbo Stads Stadsarkiv and take a look at BIa:10 Rådstuvurättens protokoll 1638, concept version. At the end there are a few bouppteckningar I can assure, I do not know which.

For any enthusiast wanting to make an exhaustive search (in Turku i e – in Helsinki there are a lot more), there are some small series called
B3a:1a Allegater [vouchers ?] 1667-1709,
B3a:1b Allegater 1670-1715
containing a variety of documents
and
BIVJ:1 Skiötnings- och fastebrev [real estate acts] 1659-1732
and
GI:1 Stadens räkenskaper [account records for the city] 1652
and
GI:4,5 Räkning över enskilda medel [somewhat similar to above in contents] 1673-1675

Regards,
Lars-Olov

[LOE]

I may have been too generous with the index. I checked again and recalled that there is more regularily an index only from 1639 and on. If there is none you will have to browse through all pages and check the abstracts in the margin (pretty much what would have gone into the index). If abstracts are missing you will have to go the hard way - skim through the preamble of every single act.

I should have mentioned the Kämnärsrätt, which was a lower court in a sense. The court records from 1639 and on are preserved. They too are available on the web.

In the account records for the church, preserved from the middle of the 16th century, you may find information about burials (normal), weddings and other church business. All volumes are available on the web. This stuff requires a substantial effort, since essentially you will have to sift through huge chunks of information but that can be pretty rewarding, with exact dates and details revealing the status of the family and more.

Regards,

Lars-Olov

[LOE]

You may be interested in the Dahlström register with some 300000 cards with genealogic and topographic notes and references, recently digitalized. Dahlström was an archivarian at the Turku city archives and did historic research in court records and other documents. You should not expect his collection to be exhaustive or even all information always being correct, but you should absolutely look and see what he has got:
http://digi.narc.fi/digi/dosearch.ka?atun=312976.KA (http://digi.narc.fi/digi/dosearch.ka?atun=312976.KA)

For example in the name section of his register you’ll find Autor Duwall at
http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=31011854 (http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=31011854)
et seq..

[Sedis]

Hans Platz esimerkiksi tämän kortin lähistöllä: http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=31081919

[petergmdale]

Greetings,

A belated reply and thank you to Kimmo, Lars-Olov and Jari for your respective responses to my earlier inquiries. I have not yet had an opportunity to review the sources referenced but certainly very much appreciate being provided this guidance and advice. As always, any new information on any of the Duvall, Platz and/or Stork families is greatly appreciated!

Cheers,

Pete

[Ilari J. Sohlo]

Hi, This is all very interesting. I am from Oulu and a descendant of the Duwall/Platz families. I was wondering if anyone has done a DNA test to ascertain whether the Duwall branch came from Scotland or Germany? This might require a direct maternal/paternal line descendant though. One thing that comes to mind is how much people moved around following trade routes. I would suspect that quite a few people from Turku would moved north to cities such as Oulu, which was founded in 1605 after Sweden got the area in 1595. This would explain why some families disappeared from Turku. Oulu wanted to attract merchants, traders and craftspeople to kick start the development of the city. There is a good book on the history of the region: Huurre, Vahtola: "Oulujokilaakson Historia". On another note, I think it is also possible, at least one cannot discard the idea immediately as one cannot discard the Scottish or German origin of Duwalls, that some of the Turku merchants were assimilated (German) Jews who followed the trade opportunities. Some names mentioned such as Herz are both "Christian" as well as "Jewish" names. See here e.g. for people with the surname Herz: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herz_(surname).

[E Juhani Tenhunen]

Hi, This is all very interesting. I am from Oulu and a descendant of the Duwall/Platz families. I was wondering if anyone has done a DNA test to ascertain whether the Duwall branch came from Scotland or Germany? This might require a direct maternal/paternal line descendant though. One thing that comes to mind is how much people moved around following trade routes. I would suspect that quite a few people from Turku would moved north to cities such as Oulu, which was founded in 1605 after Sweden got the area in 1595. This would explain why some families disappeared from Turku. Oulu wanted to attract merchants, traders and craftspeople to kick start the development of the city. There is a good book on the history of the region: Huurre, Vahtola: "Oulujokilaakson Historia". On another note, I think it is also possible, at least one cannot discard the idea immediately as one cannot discard the Scottish or German origin of Duwalls, that some of the Turku merchants were assimilated (German) Jews who followed the trade opportunities. Some names mentioned such as Herz are both "Christian" as well as "Jewish" names. See here e.g. for people with the surname Herz: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herz_(surname).

I suppose the case of Author Duvel is similar than in https://www.adelsvapen.com/genealogi/Duwall_nr_241

E. Juhani Tenhunen

[Raili]

Greetings,

A belated reply and thank you to Kimmo, Lars-Olov and Jari for your respective responses to my earlier inquiries. I have not yet had an opportunity to review the sources referenced but certainly very much appreciate being provided this guidance and advice. As always, any new information on any of the Duvall, Platz and/or Stork families is greatly appreciated!

Cheers,

Pete

Dear Pete,

just found this thread and got immediately interested, as I learned recently that I am a descendant of Simon Erikinpoika (Simon Erici Åboensis) Storckovius, son of Eric/Erik, although originally the family name was Storck.

As I noticed that you also would like to learn more about this particular family, I would be interested in hearing whether you have been successful.

All information would be highly appreciated, as I am taking my very first steps in looking into the early history of this family.

Raili

[Inia]

Have anyone ever search information about wife of Hans Platz, Johanna (Jenneke) van Kessel? Suddenly some users of My Heritage says that her father is Severijn von Kessel (born 1533 Nijmegen) and mother Aleida von Kessel. From where have they found this?

[Anne C.]

*Johanna (Jenneke) van Kessel was the wife of Coenraad Plas, Rentmeester of Nijmegen, who might have been Hans Platz's brother. After Coenrad's death, she married Christoffel Biesman in 1628.

Source: Biografisch Woordenboek Gelderland
http://www.biografischwoordenboekgelderland.nl/bio/4_Christoffel_Biesman
Christoffel Biesman ca.1570‑1634, patriciër en Arminiaans staatsman
Bij combinatie van de beschikbare gegevens kan het geboortejaar van Christoffel Biesman, oudste zoon van Jacob Biesman (1544‑1599) en Gertrude van Beuningen (“Gertken van Boenynghen”, †1572/1573), op ca.1570 worden gesteld. Christoffel Biesman huwde in augustus 1589 met Rutgerdis Dassen (†1627). In 1628, kort na haar dood, trouwde hij met Johanna (Jenneke) van Kessel, weduwe van de Nijmeegse rentmeester Coenraad Plas. Beide huwelijken bleven kinderloos. Op 19 maart 1634 overleed hij in zijn geboortestad Nijmegen.

[Inia]

Thanks Anne, that was the only information I found that I can rely on. But what about the parents and family?

[Anne C.]

Some more information:

*Coenrad married 1. 28.02.1598 in Nijmegen Neesken van Hafften. He married 2. 29.05.1599 in Nijmegen Jenneke Severijnen, dead after 24.10.1612, who was the widow of Willem Janssen. Coenrad married 3. before 17.08.1616 Jenneke van Kessel, dead around 1652.

That's all I know. There might be a confusion between the two Jenneke, as the first one appears to be the daughter of a Severijn.

Nijmegen's archives are accessible on the Internet.

[Inia]

Thanks again, that explains it, it's a confusion.

[Inia]

Anne, where have you found the last information about Coenraad? The dates are confusing. If Coenraad married Jenneke van Kessel 1612-1616, Jenneke can't be the mother of Hans Platz (Plas), who is said to been born 1570 and die 1620. This Coenraad Plas seems to be more a brother to Hans than his father.

[Anne C.]

Anne, where have you found the last information about Coenraad? The dates are confusing. If Coenraad married Jenneke van Kessel 1612-1616, Jenneke can't be the mother of Hans Platz (Plas), who is said to been born 1570 and die 1620. This Coenraad Plas seems to be more a brother to Hans than his father.
That's right, as I said, Coenraad is the brother of Hans. Their father's name is unknown. Coenraad (or Conrad in German) is said to be from Berk (in Dahlem, Germany).

The information comes from Nijmegen's archives
<https://studiezaal.nijmegen.nl/ran/_resultaat.aspx?abc_mode=1&invalshoek=22849198&invalshoeknaam=GENERIEK&uitgebreid_zoeken=true&bsoorten_136=136&cmveldValue_VrijXXzoeken=plas&cmveldName_VrijXXzoeken=VrijXXzoeken&cmveldValue_Periode_van=1500&cmveldName_Periode_van=Periode&cmveldValue_Periode_tot=1680&cmveldName_Periode_zoeken=Periode&cmveldValue_Persoonsnaam=&cmveldName_Persoonsnaam=Persoonsnaam&cmveldValue_Locatie=&cmveldName_Locatie=Locatie&sortering=&volgnummer=6&huidigepagina=3>

[Anne C.]

And now I have a doubt about the two Jenneke. Maybe there is only one, whose name would be Jenneke Severijnen van Kessel.

I'll try to check that.

[Inia]

That is interesting. Let me/us know if you find something new. I posted a question to Dutch genealogist, if they can find out something more about this family.

[Anne C.]

One more thing. Some genealogies state that there are two Coenraad, father and son. I have checked some accounts of the city of Nijmegen and I'm pretty sure there is only one Coenraad.

[Anne C.]

Here are two weddings of Coenraad. I have not found any wedding with the name of Jenneke van Kessel, so maybe there really is only one Jenneke.

Nederduits‑Gereformeerde Gemeente 1592‑1635
Bruidegom: Conraet Plass
Bruid: Neesken van Hafften
Datum document: 28/2/1598
Opmerking: Hij: van Berck (ten noorden van Stadtkill) Zij: van Nijmegen.
Datum 1e afkondiging: 15/ /
Trouwdatum: 15/ /
Bron: Huwelijksregister Nederduits‑Gereformeerde gemeente Nijmegen (RBS 1172/034)

Nederduits‑Gereformeerde Gemeente 1592‑1635
Bruidegom: Conradt Plass
Bruid: Jennicken Severijnen
Datum document: 29/5/1599
Opmerking: Zij: weduwe van Willem Janssen.
Datum 1e afkondiging: 15/ /
Trouwdatum: 15/ /
Bron: Huwelijksregister Nederduits‑Gereformeerde gemeente Nijmegen (RBS 1172/043)

[Anne C.]

The existence of Severijn van Kessel and his wife Aleida van Wanroy is at least confirmed by the "Nederland's adelboek" from 1907, with the mention of the marriage of their daughter Metta.

"Laurens Portman genannt van den Bergh, geb. Nijmegen 1561, burgemeester, schepen en raad van Nijmegen, f aldaar 1599, tr. Nijmegen 11 Juni 1584 Metta van Kessel, f 14 Juni 1622, dr. van Severijn en Aleida van Wanroy. Zij hertr. 28 Aug. 1600 Frans de Beyer."

Severijn and Aleida married 1558 (according to a "schepenprotocol" about the "morgengave", which means a present given the day after the marriage, cited by <http://gw.geneanet.org/hoffman?lang=en&pz=hermann&nz=hoffman&ocz=0&p=severryn&n=van+kessel>)

[Inia]

Thank you Anne, I am impressed. :)

Have you ever searched Berk city archives, if there is something about Hans and Conrad or any Platz family members?

[Anne C.]

Have you ever searched Berk city archives, if there is something about Hans and Conrad or any Platz family members?
Not personnally, but Peter Dale made an inquiry. I take the liberty to reproduce the answer. There seems to be no way to know more.

Landeshauptarchiv Koblenz
Az. F- Platz
Betr.: Familienforschung Platz

Sehr geehrter Herr Dale,

hinsichtlich der Kirchenbuchüberlieferung von Berk im Kreis Euskirchen, Nordrhein-Westfalen, müssen wir Ihnen leider mitteilen, dass die einschlägige Überlieferung im Personenstandsarchiv Rheinland, Standort Brühl, erst im 18. Jh. (1749 ff) beginnt (vgl. auch Orts-Familienbuch der Pfarre Berk, St. Brictius, erstelltvon Josef Gietzen, Seelze-Lohnde mit Nachweis der Familien der Pfarre Berk von ca. 1755 bis 1899 // vgl. http://www.dahlem.de/kultur_geschichte.php?seite=Ortsfamilienbuch%20Ber k/Eifel).

Die Publikation von Thorey / Geis: Kirchenbuchbestände, Familienbücher und Verkartungen weistzudem auf Kirchenbücher für Berk im Bischöflichen Diösesanarchiv Aachen für dieJahre 1721-1742 hin.

Da der Ort Berk für die Zeit des Alten Reiches zur Herrschaft Kronenberg gehörte, wurden sowohl Best. 29G Herrschaft Kronenburg als auch Best. 15 Herzogtum Luxemburg auf einschlägige Quellen hin überprüft; direkte Quellen zur Familienforschung für den gesuchten Zeitraum konnten jedoch leidernicht ermittelt werden.

Von Interesse für Ihre Nachforschungen könnte möglicherweise folgende Titelaufnahme in Best. 29G Herrschaft Kronenburg: Lehenregister der Vasallen der Herrschaft Kronenburg, welche ihre Lehen von... Herren zu Kronenburg 1488-1489 empfangen haben.., sein, die in der Liste der Vasallen, die zum Haus Cronenburch gehören, auch ein Johan Platz(?) aufführt (vgl. auszugsweise Fotos der Titelaufnahme im Anhang aus Findbuch LHAK Best. 29G Nr. 300 S. 106, 110).

Im Best. 15 Herzogtum Luxemburg finden sich in der Überlieferungder Herrschaft Kronenburg (mit Berk), die erst ab 1766 mit der Aufnahme der Güter und Besitzaufnahme (sog. Theresianisches Kataster) beginnt, nur Gemeinderechnungen von Berk von 1772-1773 (Nr. 285) und Schatzungsrechnungenvon 1772-1784 (Nr. 286), die für Ihre Nachforschungen nicht in Betracht kommendürften.

Wir bedauern, Ihnen keine positiveren Bescheid geben zu können.
Mit freundlichenGrüßen
i.A.
Marli Beck
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[Lignelius]

Hello Pete and others!

This thread is almost a decade old. Has anybody discovered any new information?

VL

I’m looking for information on the background of Author/Auctor Duvel/Duwal who was a Merchant in Turku. Auctor was born approximately 1590 and was a successful Merchant in Turku. However, he died penniless in Oulu and was buried in Turku on May 10, 1636. I’m a descendent of his daughter Helena (Elin) Duvel-Trumbel (the name of her step-father) who married Isaac Hansson Sinius.

I’ve read the literature online that discusses Auctor’s potential ethnicity as being Scottish, German or Dutch.

[petergmdale]

Greetings,

I decided recently to review my notes on the Platz family and take another look at the Nijmegen Regional Archives regarding Hans Platz’s brother Conrad. Below are a few interesting items, and I’d certainly welcome any further thoughts or insights regarding their importance, if any.

[1] Conrad appears to have died between October 24, 1626 and July 3, 1627.
(weblinks - (a) re October 24, 1626 see - https://studiezaal.nijmegen.nl/detail.php?nav_id=4-1&id=16566773; and (b) re July 3, 1627 see - https://studiezaal.nijmegen.nl/detail.php?nav_id=50-1&id=16543747)

Item [1](a) above is an estate deed and is interesting because it references multiple individuals named "Plas" (which was quite rare in Nijmegen at the time) including - Maria Plas, Willemken Plas, Coenraet Plas and Jan Plas. Also mentioned is Conrad's wife Jenneken van Kessel.

“Beneficiary Fijtgen NN (Occupation: maidservant)
-- related Wilhem Denis
-- deceased married (couple 2)
-- beneficiary Coenraet NN
-- beneficiary Trijneken NN
-- related Wilhem van Haften
-- related Maria Plas
-- related Peterken Hendericx
-- related Jenneken van Kessel
-- married (couple 1)
-- related Willemken Plas
-- married (couple 2)
-- beneficiary Coenraet van Haften
-- favored Hugo Denis
-- acts for itself Coenraet Plas
-- married (couple 1)
-- related Jan Plas
-- passed away
-- Date document 24/10/1626
-- Type of estate deed
-- Archive number 3
-- Archive name Stadsgerichten Nijmegen
-- Inventory number 1878
-- Folio 99 -- From archive 3 Stadsgerichten Nijmegen, inv. No. 1878
[Note - translated from Dutch]

Of further note above is the following (i) references to the van Haften family. Contrad’s 1st wife was named Neesken van Hafften, and (ii) reference to Jan Plas who appears to be deceased. Could this be ‘our’ Hans Platz, Mayor of Turku d. 1620?

Of the very few references to the Plas family in Nijmegen, the following references to a Jan Plas,Gelleijn Plas and Hans Plas seemed interesting to me:

[2] Jan Plas - baptism

April 20, 1619 • Nijmegen, Gelderland, Netherlands
Child - Jan Plas -- Father - Gelleijn Plas -- Mother - Anna Bernens -- Date document - 20/4/1619 -- Witnesses - Jan Smidt, Herman van Selensten, Maijcken van Borele
(weblink - https://studiezaal.nijmegen.nl/detail.php?nav_id=41-1&id=16030180)

[3] Marriage - Hans Plas and Judith Hermans/Harmens

January 31, 1636 • Nijmegen, Gelderland, Netherlands
Groom - Hans Plas - Young man, rider -- Bride - Judith Hermans - Widow of Govert Allen -- Date of document - 31/1/1636 -- Witnesses Hendr. Gerrits, Hendr. Janss, Enneken Janss, Lijsken Hendricx -- Date 1st promulgation - 31/1/1636 -- Wedding date-2/3/1616
(weblink - https://studiezaal.nijmegen.nl/detail.php?nav_id=38-1&id=621451818)

[4] Hans Plas - witness
October 8, 1637 • Nijmegen, Gelderland, Netherlands
Child - Jan Jansen -- Father - Hendrick Jansen -- Mother - Lijssken Hendricx -- Date document - 8/10/1637 -- Witnesses - Marselis Janssen, Hans Plas, Willemken Hendricks
(weblink - https://studiezaal.nijmegen.nl/detail.php?nav_id=38-1&id=16117878)

Other than Conrad, what, if any, relationship do the above Plas/Platz individuals have to ‘our’ Turku Platz family?

Cheers,

Pete
pdale (at) peterdale (dot) com

[Anne C.]

Hi Pete,

There is something wrong with this reference. Is it 1636 or 1616?

I coudl not find it here anyway https://studiezaal.nijmegen.nl/detail.php?%2Fdetail_php%3Fnav_id=38-2&id=2133189400&index=&volgnummer=294&thumb_page=37

Anne


January 31, 1636 • Nijmegen, Gelderland, Netherlands
Groom - Hans Plas - Young man, rider -- Bride - Judith Hermans - Widow of Govert Allen -- Date of document - 31/1/1636 -- Witnesses Hendr. Gerrits, Hendr. Janss, Enneken Janss, Lijsken Hendricx -- Date 1st promulgation - 31/1/1636 -- Wedding date-2/3/1616
(weblink - https://studiezaal.nijmegen.nl/detail.php?nav_id=38-1&id=621451818)

[petergmdale]

Hi Anne,

Great to hear from you! I hope you and your family are well.

Regarding the Hans Plas entry, I took the 1616 reference to be a typo. However, I’m not sure if that is in fact the case. The correct link is here - https://studiezaal.nijmegen.nl/detail.php?nav_id=38-1&id=621451818

Another really interesting item I’ve discovered is the following. In the abstracts of the Turku litigation regarding Conrad Platz’s estate, kindly provided by Mr. Lars-Olov Eriksson to this thread on August 11, 2014, he references the following:

“1655 - p324 12 dec b184 Jacob Trumbel appeared at court and declared that he and Roßkamp had come to an agreement a couple of days ago regarding a potential future inheritance [!] after one Timan Platz, at a price of 1000 pounds of tobacco. However Roßkamp the day after had changed his mind. Jacob Trumbel is then claiming the share of Gabriel Platz, which claim is accepted given a bail for the case that Gabriel himself or his children would later appear and claim the same.”
(source - http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=11478456)

Who is “Timan Platz”?

The only other “Plas” who occurs with any regularity in the Regional Archives of Nijmegen during this time period is a Tilman Plas (also Tijlman, Tillman, Tilleman, etc.)

Below are his 2x marriages and last reference in the archival records c 1655.

1601 - Groom Tijlman Plas - from Siegen from the County of Nassau, soldier under Captain Coenders. -- Bride Sophia Wapen - from "" Vloedorpff "" (Vlodorp). -- Date document 8/2/1601 -- Witnesses Joist van Siegen rider under Count of Hohenloo, Elisabeth Smits, written permission from the captain. -- Date 1st promulgation 8/2/1601 -- Wedding date 2/22/1601
(source - https://studiezaal.nijmegen.nl/detail.php?nav_id=10-1&id=621289007)

1603 - Groom Tilman Plas – from Siegen, soldier under Count Ernst. -- Bride Anneke Denis - widow of Hendrick van Munster. -- Date of document 6/3/1603 -- Witnesses Jacob Schantz, Geertgen Zanders -- Date 1st promulgation 6/3/1603 -- Wedding date 3/22/1603
(source - https://studiezaal.nijmegen.nl/detail.php?nav_id=39-1&id=621299519)

1655 - Owner Tilleman Plas -- Document date 1655 -- Locations Nijmegen B159 Bloemerstraat
Cadastral number Nijmegen C 1510 -- Early year 1655 -- End year 1670 -- Reference Only the street name is mentioned in the source. The district number and the cadastral number have been added to the description by the editor.
(source - https://studiezaal.nijmegen.nl/detail.php?nav_id=39-1&id=2165186481)

A few additional observations.

[1] You will note that Tilman Plas’ 2nd wife is named Denis. There are 2 references to members of the Denis family in the estate deed dated October 24, 1626 – Wilhem Denis and Hugo Denis. (source - https://studiezaal.nijmegen.nl/detail.php?nav_id=4-1&id=16566773)

[2] Tilman, given the dates of his 2x marriages, would appear to be a contemporary of Hans Platz and his brother Conrad. Perhaps another brother?

[3] According to Dr. Marc Jarzebowski, Taxodium Family Research, in his e-mail to me dated March 6, 2013, “There was no reformed parish in that area [Berk], so the only option is to look for the Catholic records (and possible non-ecclesiastical records).” However, Nassau-Seigen did have a Protestant section. The military commander under whom Tilman served appears to be a Protestant leader from Nassau-Seigen. Johan Ernst of Nassau-Siegen (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johan_Ernst_van_Nassau-Siegen) or, possibly, Ernest Casimir I, Count of Nassau-Dietz - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernest_Casimir_I,_Count_of_Nassau-Dietz. I note further that Conrad Plas appears to have been a Churchwarden in Nijmegen on January 8, 1624 (source - https://studiezaal.nijmegen.nl/detail.php?nav_id=51-1&id=2310472259)

Perhaps the Platz – Plas family originated in Nassau-Siegen rather than Berk?

I welcome any thoughts on the above!

Cheers,

Pete
pdale (at) peterdale (dot) com

[Kivipää]

[The military commander under whom Tilman served appears to be a Protestant leader from Nassau-Seigen. Johan Ernst of Nassau-Siegen (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johan_Ernst_van_Nassau-Siegen) or, possibly, Ernest Casimir I, Count of Nassau-Dietz - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernest_Casimir_I,_Count_of_Nassau-Dietz. I note further that Conrad Plas appears to have been a Churchwarden in Nijmegen on January 8, 1624 (source - https://studiezaal.nijmegen.nl/detail.php?nav_id=51-1&id=2310472259)[/FONT]

Perhaps the Platz – Plas family originated in Nassau-Siegen rather than Berk?

I welcome any thoughts on the above!

Cheers,

Pete
pdale (at) peterdale (dot) com

In 1596 it was decided to increase the standing (Dutch) army to 12 000 men. This included the first foreign regiments in permanent service. One English, one Scottish and one German to be formed all the Germans in other companies. The German regiment was (1599-) under Ernst Casimir of Nassau-Dietz, a Stadtholder of Friesland, Groningen and Drenthe. Maurice, Prince of Orange, was his cousin.
______________
Matti Pesola

[Anne C.]

Hi Anne,

Great to hear from you! I hope you and your family are well.

Regarding the Hans Plas entry, I took the 1616 reference to be a typo. However, I’m not sure if that is in fact the case. The correct link is here - https://studiezaal.nijmegen.nl/detail.php?nav_id=38-1&id=621451818

Yes, but when you go from that link to the original source in 1636, it seems to be a dead end. I have not yet been able to find the 1616 register to check.

And thanks, though confined, we are doing fine. Hope you to.

Anne

[petergmdale]

Hi Matti, many thanks for your comment and insight - much appreciated!


Anne (or anyone else who follows this thread), any further thoughts regarding the information I posted above about Conrad, the estate deed, Tilman Plas and Nassau-Siegen? I'm keen to hear from others and their views as my knowledge of this time period/area is so limited.


Kiitos!


Pete

[Anne C.]

Anne (or anyone else who follows this thread), any further thoughts regarding the information I posted above about Conrad, the estate deed, Tilman Plas and Nassau-Siegen? I'm keen to hear from others and their views as my knowledge of this time period/area is so limited.
I don't know about Nassau-Siegen, but the Tilman Plas - Denis connection seems promising.
I'll try to dig into all that in a few weeks, just now I have work to deal with.
Anne

[Anne C.]

Hi Pete,


THe only thing I have been able to check so far is the marriage of Hans Plas and Judith Hermans. It must be 1616, as they have children in 1619, 1620, 1623, 1625, 1627 and 1630.


Anne

[petergmdale]

Thanks Anne! Do you have the names of the children? If you can provide the names/dob per child it would be appreciated.

Any thoughts on next steps in this research? For example, regarding 'our' Conrad from Berk v. Tilman from Nassau-Siegen, whether it is worth examining if 'our' Platz family came from Nassau-Siegen? Currently we seem to have exhausted the research options in Berk.

Cheers,

Pete

[Anne C.]

Thanks Anne! Do you have the names of the children? If you can provide the names/dob per child it would be appreciated.

No, I'm very sorry. It's a note I made some time ago and I just don't know where I picked that up. I've tried to locate the source, but no luck so far.

[Anne C.]

Sorry again, I got it all wrong. The children are those of Judith and her first husband Govert Allen. So Judith and Hans Plas married 1636.


See e.g. https://studiezaal.nijmegen.nl/detail.php?id=15930215 and https://studiezaal.nijmegen.nl/detail.php?id=15930203

[petergmdale]

I wonder whether this is Hans Platz Jr., goldsmith, who is referenced in Turku from c 1624-1629 (possibly as late as 1640?)?

[Anne C.]

I wonder whether this is Hans Platz Jr., goldsmith, who is referenced in Turku from c 1624-1629 (possibly as late as 1640?)?
Why would he have gone back to Holland and married there a widow? And at his marriage in Holland, Hans is said to be a "ruiter" (rider, horseman).


And about Tilman Plas, I think the first thing to do would be to try to establish his exact links, if any, with Conrad. Tilman seems to have at least one son, Hubert, who married Jaepen Hermans in 1649 (Tilman is witness) https://studiezaal.nijmegen.nl/detail.php?nav_id=0-1&id=621529170.



I also have a question about the 1626 succession/estate deed. We have the heirs, but who's succession is it?

[petergmdale]

Hi Anne,

Fair enough regarding Hans. I think I was overcome by "irrational exuberance" :)

Regarding the relationship between Tilman and 'our' Turku Platz family, I point out again the abstracts of the Turku litigation regarding Conrad Platz’s estate, provided by Mr. Lars-Olov Eriksson to this thread on August 11, 2014, which included:

“1655 - p324 12 dec b184 Jacob Trumbel appeared at court and declared that he and Roßkamp had come to an agreement a couple of days ago regarding a potential future inheritance [!] after one Timan Platz, at a price of 1000 pounds of tobacco. However Roßkamp the day after had changed his mind. Jacob Trumbel is then claiming the share of Gabriel Platz, which claim is accepted given a bail for the case that Gabriel himself or his children would later appear and claim the same.”
(source - http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=11478456)

Note the reference to "Timan Platz". Assuming "Timan Platz" = "Tilman Plas" it suggest he was related to 'our' Turku family.

Cheers,

Pete

[Anne C.]

Note the reference to "Timan Platz". Assuming "Timan Platz" = "Tilman Plas" it suggest he was related to 'our' Turku family.

I agree with that, Tilman seems to be related to Conrad and Hans, but we lack concrete evidence of the actual relationship. Brothers is of course a possibility.

[petergmdale]

Greetings, I thought it may be useful to share with Suku Forum the attached report that Marc Jarzebowski prepared for me which, in section 2, addresses Henrik Platz’s relations in Nijmegen. I’d welcome any input or additional thoughts. Cheers, Pete Dale

[Anne C.]

Hi Peter,


Do you have the translation, or at least the transcription, of the probate file https://studiezaal.nijmegen.nl/detail.php?nav_id=39-2&id=2133514982, images 131 f.


I'm also wondering, if Tilman is from Siegen and Conrad from Berk, it seems unlikely that they are brothers.


Cheers, Anne

[petergmdale]

Hi Anne, unfortunately I don't have a translation or transcription. I've attached a copy of the original document FYI.


Given the Trumbel - Roßkamp reference to Tilman, and his chronological proximity to Conrad, I suspect that he is, in fact, a relative and that one of Tilman or Conrad moved to/from Siegen or Berk rather than it being a coincidence that Tilman is in Nijmegen as per Trumbel - Roßkamp.


Cheers, Pete

[Anne C.]

Hi Pete,


Thanks for the files, at least the names are clearly visible.


Anne

[RikuR]

Hello Pete and others!

This thread is almost a decade old. Has anybody discovered any new information?

VL
Hello all!


Whilst I have not discovered any new information about the person A.D., I have made research about the first name Auctor and the surnames Duval[l], Duvel[l], Duwell and found interesting information which has given new insight about the likely national origin of A.D.


My research has confirmed that British (English or Scottish), (Walloon) French and German ethnicity are possible for A.D. as well as Ashkenazi Jewish, but not Dutch.


When it comes to the first name Auctor/Aukter/Author, two distinct etymologies appear.


Firstly, my research confirmed the notion of Arno Tertti in his 1984 article that Auctor was used as a Christian name in mediæval Braunschweig (Brunswick), Germany where in the city of X the cult of Saint Auctor was popular. Saint Auctor flourished as Bishop of Metz in AD 451.


Author is therefore a German name and Düwell is a German surname still in use in our day.


However, Auctor is also a variant of the name Arthur in the early French manuscripts of the Arthurian legend, and apparently also a variant of the name Hector:
https://nightbringer.se/the-legend-of-king-arthur/arthurian-characters/e-arthurian-characters/ector/

'Duwell' as a name has been present in 18th century England and New England and the Scottish surname 'MacDougall' has also been spelled 'Mac Duwell':
https://books.google.fi/books?id=Ctd0EAAAQBAJ&pg=PT64&dq=mac+duwell&hl=fi&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwic8biZrsCBAxWrHRAIHYR-BbYQ6AF6BAgBEAE#v=onepage&q=mac%20duwell&f=false


https://books.google.fi/books?id=p0laDwAAQBAJ&pg=PP27&dq=duwell+england&hl=fi&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj1ls7Gr8CBAxUpGRAIHUD4Cuo4FBDoAXoECAcQA Q#v=onepage&q=duwell%20england&f=false

A.D. has also been called 'Duwall' which is the spelling of the Scotch family of MacDougall which settled in Sweden in late 17th century.


A.D. has also been referred to as 'Duval', which is a common French surname and might imply a French Huguenot origin.


So, A.D. might be 'Author Düwell' from Germany or 'Arthur [Mac] Duwell' of England or Scotland or 'Author/Arthur Duval' from France.


One member of this forum pointed out that the surname was in various variations common among Ashkenazi Jews as well.


However, tge first name and the surname do not appear to have any connection with the Netherlands.