Sursill questions

[petergmdale]

Greetings,

Just a brief note to ask a few questions.

1. I see that Erik (Ångerman) Sursill (approx. 1480-1550) is sometimes referred to as Eric Östensson Sursill. Is there any evidentiary basis for the use of the patronymic ‘Östensson’? Was this reference found in any historical records?

2. Are there any recent research findings that shed any new light on the parentage or background of either Erik Sursill or his wife Dordi? i.e. any evidence to support her possible relationship to the Bure family?

3. I’ve seen references to Erik Sursill being born in Nordingrå, Sweden. What is the basis for this and is anyone familiar with any historical evidence to support it?

4. I’ve seen considerable debate in various genealogical forums/family trees regarding the paternity of both Carolus Eriksson Sursill (Pastor of Kokkola) and Östen Eriksson Sursill (approx. 1520-1580) who was born in Umeå and the father of the famous Sursill daughters. Some people state that Carolus is not Erik Sursill’s child but a brother-in-law of Erik Sursill’s son Östen Eriksson Sursill. Others say that Östen is not Erik’s son but rather a brother-in-law of Carolus who is indeed his son. What is the most recent historically reasoned opinion on this issue?

5. Lastly, does anyone have any additional information on the parentage/background of Carolus Sursill’s wife Anna other than that she was from Stockholm? What is the historical basis for concluding she was from Stockholm?

Many thanks for any assistance you can provide with respect to the above questions. Kiitos!

Regards,

Pete Dale

[Lasse1951]

Hi Pete,

I'll try to answer your 3 first questions.

1. I havn't seen any evidences about Erik beeing the son of Östen. Of course it could be possible considering if the naming convention followed the same scheme as in this picture http://www.sursill.net/eosursill.jpg

2. It's possible, but not 100% proved. In the Genos magazine nbr 3/2010 is an article by Tina Miettinen about last year in Finland in the archives found Bure book, probably the oldets copy in the nordic countrys. The book implies that Dordi should be of Bure ancestry.

3. Havn't seen or heard of any evidences to where Erik was born

4. There is a court protocol indirectly stating that Carl is the brother of Östens wife Magdalena.

5. I don't have any futher info on Anna.

Lasse Holm

[petergmdale]

Greetings,

Many thanks Lasse for your prompt and helpful answers to my questions. Much appreciated! I was wondering if you, or anyone else, may be able to send me a link to the Genos magazine nbr 3/2010 article by Tina Miettinen. I cannot find a link to it on the web.

I welcome anyone else’s thought on my questions above and the implications of the Miettinen article on Dordi Sursill’s possible parentage. Kiitos!

Cheers,

Pete

[JHissa]

Greetings,

Many thanks Lasse for your prompt and helpful answers to my questions. Much appreciated! I was wondering if you, or anyone else, may be able to send me a link to the Genos magazine nbr 3/2010 article by Tina Miettinen. I cannot find a link to it on the web.

I welcome anyone else’s thought on my questions above and the implications of the Miettinen article on Dordi Sursill’s possible parentage. Kiitos!

Cheers,

Pete
Older article Genos 13(1942), s. 123-124
http://www.genealogia.fi/genos/13/13_123.htm

[Lasse1951]

Greetings,

Many thanks Lasse for your prompt and helpful answers to my questions. Much appreciated! I was wondering if you, or anyone else, may be able to send me a link to the Genos magazine nbr 3/2010 article by Tina Miettinen. I cannot find a link to it on the web.

I welcome anyone else’s thought on my questions above and the implications of the Miettinen article on Dordi Sursill’s possible parentage. Kiitos!

Cheers,

Pete

Hi Pete,

The article isn't available on the net yet.

You should have my personal email, at least we have been in email contact before, so if you send me your snail mail address, I'll buy that number of Genos and send it to you next time I'll visit the society's library in Helsinki, it should happen within a few weeks.

Happy Easter!

Lasse

[petergmdale]

Greetings,

I understand that the Tina Miettinen article is not presently available online. I’m curious if anyone who has reviewed it can tell me what new evidence Ms. Miettinen has discovered that further supports Dordi’s background as part of the Bure family? Does it point to her being the daughter of Jacob Andersson Bure (b. approx. 1450 - Bureå, Skellefteå, Sweden) as some genealogies suggest? Once again, I’m grateful for any assistance.

Cheers,

Pete

[Erkki A Tikkanen]

Greetings,

I understand that the Tina Miettinen article is not presently available online. I’m curious if anyone who has reviewed it can tell me what new evidence Ms. Miettinen has discovered that further supports Dordi’s background as part of the Bure family? Does it point to her being the daughter of Jacob Andersson Bure (b. approx. 1450 - Bureå, Skellefteå, Sweden) as some genealogies suggest? Once again, I’m grateful for any assistance.

Cheers,

Pete

Hi Pete, I just sent you the article, I scanned it and made a PDF file for you. Maybe you could use something like Google translater to get the info out of that article.

Happy Easter,

[Lasse1951]

Hi Pete, I just sent you the article, I scanned it and made a PDF file for you. Maybe you could use something like Google translater to get the info out of that article.

Happy Easter,

Thanks Erkki,

I also have the magazine somewhere in this room, but could not find just now. I've requested a copy of Tiina, and will mail to Pete when I get it.

Lasse Holm

[Tiina Miettinen]

Here´s the english summary of my article :)


Tiina Miettinen: Who found the Sursill family? The early stages of genealogy in Sweden and Finland
Genos 2/2010 (English Summary)

The history of the origin of the classic work on Finnish genealogical research, Genealogia Sursilliana, is well known from many writings: the bishop of Turku, Johannes Elai Terserus, noticed in 1660 on his visitation of Ostrobothnia that the mostpart of the region’s ministers and gentry were interrelated. The common ancestor of a wide family network was revealed to have been Erik Ångerman from Umeå in Sweden, who used the surname Sursill. This prefatory remark to Bishop Terserus’ official travels, written by E. R. Alcenius in 1847, has been repeated up to this day in many writings illuminating the history of Finnish genealogical research. Is the explanation of the origin of the pastime of Finnish genealogy such as Alcenius gave us to understand? In particular, why was Bishop Terserus, of wholly Swedish background, interested in the family roots of the gentry of Ostrobothnia?

Johannes Terserus was born in 1605 to Elof Terserus and Anna Danielsdotter Svinhufvud. Elof Terserus was married again around 1610 to Margareta Säbråzynthia. Margareta was daughter to Johannes Laurentius Bure, pastor of Härnösand, and be part of the Stockholm Royal Library’s extensive Sumlen collection, whose genealogical section is missing. The National Archive’s Bure book is bound in precisely the same parchment covers as the Sumlen collection. How the Bure book ended up in Finland is obscure. A lead, however, is offered by the ex libris-type family arms glued to the opening of the pedigree book: the arms belong to Johannes Bureus’ cousins, Anders, Olof and Jonas Bure, ennobled in 1627.

Olof Bure worked around 1633 as vice-president of the Turku Court of Appeal, and he is known to have possessed an extensive collections of books in Sweden. On the basis of the ex libris, the pedigree book perhaps ended up with Olof Bure, who died in 1655. Olof Bure’s daughter Elisabet Bure married Johan Munck af Fulkila in Finland. Elisabet inherited her father’swhole estate together with her sister. Thus the Bure pedigree book could have ended up in Turku in Finland as the possession of Elisabet Bure, and been open to viewing by the learned community of Turku. Elisabet Bure was Johannes Terserus’ first wife’s second cousin.

On the opening of the National Archive’s Bure book is found the sentence, unique from the point of view of the origin of the Genealogia Sursilliana: ‘Some are of the opinion that the great famduringily in Ostrobothnia is from the Tegs. Erik Ångerman’s wife Dordi is possibly of the Bure family. ’Thus Johannes Bureus, like the Västerbothnians he interviewed in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, clear that in Finland lived a related family which was known to be descended from Erik Ångerman of Umeå and his
wife Dordi. So the Ostrobothnian Sursills could also in part be from the Bure family. Elin was married to Bengt Germundsson of the Umeå Tegs, which may explain the choice of her as the foremother uniting both families. Bishop Terserus carried out his official visit to Ostrobothnia only in 1660. A strong suspicion arises that having spent his childhood and youth among the Bure family Terserus knew beforehand what he intended to do on his visit to Ostrobothnia alongside his official duties. The conclusion emerges that the genealogical observations did not in fact originate merely with the observations made in Ostrobothnia, but in Turku before the journey began. Terserus’ objective was to record the families descended from Erik Ångerman and Dordi, mentioned by Bureus.

In the 1840s, Elias Robert Alcenius was no longer aware that Johannes Bureus had already named Erik Ångerman and Dordi and their descendants in Ostrobothnia long before Terserus. Alcenius had the original Terserus records published in 1850 in an expanded form. Thus was born the Genealogia Sursilliana, which cannot be counted as part of the Bureus pedigree book: it formed an independent entity. The pedigree book of Johannes Bureus, of Finnish descent on his father’s side, has remained unknown in Finland, even though in Sweden it has for centuries been esteemed as the most significant work of genealogical history.

[petergmdale]

Hi Tiina,

Many thanks for the English translation of your article – it is very much appreciated! One more question if you would be so kind:

Is there any evidence to suggest how Dordi may have been related to the Bure family? For example, is there anything explicit or implicit to suggest that she may have been a daughter of Jakob Andersson or Anders Olofsson? I have read references to suggest that her Bure connection was paternal rather than maternal. I see in your article that there are pictures of a page from a book that apparently refers to a note regarding Dordi and an Elin and some parts of the note are illegible?

Any thoughts that you can provide are most appreciated. I’m hoping to complete the Sursill section of my family history with appropriately qualified notes to reference the Bure connection. Kiitos!

Cheers,

Pete

[Tiina Miettinen]

My answer is very short and simple:

If I had found any evidence that Dordi belongs to the Bure family, I had definitely told them in my article! There is no more evidence. Only those uncertain words which Bureus had written in his book. These words are the oldest mention about Sursill familys ancestors Erik Ångerman and Dordi.

And same in finnish: Jos olisin löytänyt jonkun todisteen, joka osoittaisi Dordin varmuudella kuuluvan Bure-sukuun, niin taatusti olisin sen artikkelissani kertonut. Mitään todisteita Dordin kuulumiselle Bure-sukuun ei ole. Paitsi tuo Bureuksen kirjoittama epävarma lause. Se on vanhin tunnettu maininta Sursill-suvun kantavanhemmista Erik Ångermanista ja Dordista.

[petergmdale]

Thank you for the clarification!

For the purposes of argument, assuming that Dordi was descended from the Bure family, I’m curious if anyone else know why some genealogies purport that she is a daughter of Jacob Andersson Bure rather than any of his brothers, sisters or cousins? What is the basis for conjecturing that she was Jacob’s daughter? Thank you in advance for any clarity on this issue.

Cheers,

Pete

****

Hei Tiina,

Kiitos selvennyksestä!

Varten väitteen, olettaen että Dordi polveutui Bure perhe, olen utelias, jos joku muu tietää, miksi jotkut sukupuuta väitetään, että hän on tytär Jacob Andersson Bure eikä kukaan hänen veljensä, sisarensa tai serkkuja? Mikä on perusta conjecturing että hän oli Jaakobin tytär? Kiitos jo etukäteen selkeää tietoa aiheesta.

Kippis,

Pete

[petergmdale]

Greetings,

Does anyone know why, assuming that Dordi was descended from the Bure family, some genealogies purport that she is a daughter of Jacob Andersson Bure rather than any of his brothers, sisters or cousins? What is the basis for determining that she was Jacob’s daughter? Thank you

Cheers,

Pete

****

Tervehdys,

Olettaen, että Dordi polveutui Bure perhe - ei kukaan tiedä, miksi jotkut sukupuuta väitetään, että hän on tytär Jacob Andersson Bure eikä kukaan hänen veljensä, sisarensa tai serkkuja? Mikä on perusteella voidaan todeta, että hän oli Jaakobin tytär? Kiitos!

Kippis,

Pete

[petergmdale]

Greetings,

I’m very familiar with the story regarding the origin of Erik Ångerman Sursill’s name. However, I’m quite interested in learning any/all details that have been discovered from land and tax records regarding Erik, his wife Dordi or their son Östen. The basic information that I have uncovered is set forth below. I’d be grateful if anyone could advise me if there is any additional information revealed in land and tax records from Umeå or if any other contemporary or near contemporary records/sources have been discovered which provide additional insight on our enigmatic ancestors! All corrections are, of course, welcome as well. Thank you.

Regards,

Pete

Östen Ericsson Sursill – Östen was the Bailiff of Umeå and a Farmer in the Village of Västerteg in the Parish of Umeå, Västerbotten Co., Sweden from 1553-1580. He was a Member of Parliament in 1571.

b. approx. 1520-1533 - Umeå, Västerbotten Co., Sweden
m.
d. 1580 at the earliest – Västerteg, Umeå, Västerbotten Co., Sweden

Eric Ångerman Sursill – Eric was a Merchant and a Farmer and Juror in Umeå, Västerbotten Co., Sweden. He lived in Umeå from at least 1539. Eric likely originated in Ångermanland Co. as evidenced by his name.

b. approx. 1480-1490 - Nordingrå, Angermanland Co., Sweden
m.
d. approx. 1550-1553 - Teg, Umeå, Västerbotten Co., Sweden.

Eric, or his family, was originally from Ångermanland county and, hence, the name Ångerman. Eric lived in Teg from at least 1539 and likely earlier. He is mentioned as a Farmer in Teg in the parish of Umeå in the oldest tax roll in 1539. Eric was a wealthy Farmer as evidence by tax records. He was often mentioned as a Juror. He likely died elderly in the early 1550s. He is mentioned in the tax rolls in the year 1550 but is not found in the following tax rolls in 1553. Erik lived in the area of the present town of Umeå near Västerteg. His wife's name was Dordi. Eric’s son Östen is found in 1571 as a Farmer’s representative in the Parliament. He disappears from the land registers in the 1580s.

Dordi (Bure?)

b. approx. 1490-1510 - Umeå, Västerbotten Co., Sweden. (1507 - source: http://www.takerman.se/Html/p07da3f79.html (http://www.takerman.se/Html/p07da3f79.html) - where does this date come from?)
d.

[petergmdale]

Greetings,

What is the latest research/conclusions regarding the following Sursill family issue and whether one or both of Östen and Carolus are children of Erik Sursill and Dordi:

The Finnish National Biography Centre states the following with respect to ‘Sursill, Carolus Erici (died 1618)’ and, in particular, regarding the fact that there is some uncertainty regarding the parentage of Östen and Carolus:

“Mikko Kuitula's notice 2.2.2011: According to an interpretation the Clergyman of Kokkola Carolus Erici (Carl Eriksson) was not the son of Erik Ångerman but, rather, the brother of Malin who was the wife of the second son Östen Eriksson (source: City Court of Oulu 1.2.1679 (ES:3088): [Een Kyrckjoherde I Gambl:Carlby, som heet H:r Carl, warit Broder åth hustru Malin, Östen Erichssons hustru, af hwilken sedan Siu Systrar äre födde, och Slächten sigh vthwijdgadt.]. This was presented in court by Kaarina Laurintytär (Karin Larsdotter) - see Genos 33(1962), p. 18–24.

According to a second interpretation it is Östen Eriksson who was not the son of Erik Ångerman but a son-in-law with the same name in which case his wife Mali and her brother the Clergyman of Kokkola Carolus would be children of Erik Ångerman. See Tapio Vähäkangas, the Ancestors of Granbergs of Lohtaja. Genos 69(1998), p 78-84, 98-99.” (source:http://www.kansallisbiografia.fi/paimenmuisto/?eid=2412 (http://www.kansallisbiografia.fi/paimenmuisto/?eid=2412))

Thanks!

Pete

[Jouni Kaleva]

Hello

This is an interesting question. I don´t think, it has been settled so far.

According to the testimony in 1679 in Oulu City Court, which you referred to, I take it for its face value as a fact that reverend Carl and Malin were a brother and sister.

"Een Kyrckjoherde I Gambl:Carlby, som heet H:r Carl, warit Broder åth hustru Malin, Östen Erichssons hustru"

"reverend in Kokkola called Carl was a brother to Mrs Malin, Östen Erichsson´s wife"

Conclusion 1: both or neither Carl and Malin were children on Erik Ångerman and Dordi.

Another fact is that Erik Ångerman did have a daughter Malin. She was the wife of Isak Tenalensis, reverend on Pietarsaari 1569-1600.

Conclusion 2: If Carl and Malin both were children on Erik Ångerman, it follows that Malin was twice married: 1. to Östen Eriksson (who died 1580 or after, but when exactly??) 2. to Isak Tenalensis. (this, basically is what Vähäkangas suggests, in the Genos article, you referred to) This theory would explain some questions, why and when Ångerman sisters moved from Sweden to Finland.

I feel the opposite: neither Carl or Malin were Erik Ångermans children. I have no evidence to support my feeling. I am glad if anybody proves me wrong :)

Greetings,

What is the latest research/conclusions regarding the following Sursill family issue and whether one or both of Östen and Carolus are children of Erik Sursill and Dordi:

The Finnish National Biography Centre states the following with respect to ‘Sursill, Carolus Erici (died 1618)’ and, in particular, regarding the fact that there is some uncertainty regarding the parentage of Östen and Carolus:

“Mikko Kuitula's notice 2.2.2011: According to an interpretation the Clergyman of Kokkola Carolus Erici (Carl Eriksson) was not the son of Erik Ångerman but, rather, the brother of Malin who was the wife of the second son Östen Eriksson (source: City Court of Oulu 1.2.1679 (ES:3088): [Een Kyrckjoherde I Gambl:Carlby, som heet H:r Carl, warit Broder åth hustru Malin, Östen Erichssons hustru, af hwilken sedan Siu Systrar äre födde, och Slächten sigh vthwijdgadt.]. This was presented in court by Kaarina Laurintytär (Karin Larsdotter) - see Genos 33(1962), p. 18–24.

According to a second interpretation it is Östen Eriksson who was not the son of Erik Ångerman but a son-in-law with the same name in which case his wife Mali and her brother the Clergyman of Kokkola Carolus would be children of Erik Ångerman. See Tapio Vähäkangas, the Ancestors of Granbergs of Lohtaja. Genos 69(1998), p 78-84, 98-99.” (source:http://www.kansallisbiografia.fi/paimenmuisto/?eid=2412 (http://www.kansallisbiografia.fi/paimenmuisto/?eid=2412))

Thanks!

Pete

[olanyk]

Hei kirjoitan suomeksi huonon kielitaitonia taki.a!

Onko Lars Olofsson Björnramin ja Erik Sursillin suhteista löydetty uutta tietoa. Lars oli ennen Pohjanmaalle tulemista voutina Åmngermanladissa ja Norbottenissa ja osti Erikiltä mm "hapatettuja silakoita=sursill" laivaston tarpeisiin. Larsin vaimoiksi on epäilty Margareta Andersdr (?Burea) ja Anna Andersdr (? Grubbia) onko näistä mitään näyttöä? Noiden epäilysten mukaan jos Dordi olisi epäilysten mukaan Jakob Buren tytär olsi Margareta olisi Dordin täti?

Olen myös pohtinut miksi Knut Fordellin puoliso Katarinna Olofsdr sai suojelukirjeen Kustaa Vaasalta poikapuoliaan vastaan. Voisiko hän olla Lars Björnramin sisko?

Olavi

[Lasse1951]

I feel the opposite: neither Carl or Malin were Erik Ångermans children. I have no evidence to support my feeling. I am glad if anybody proves me wrong :)

Hi Jouni,

Interesting thought, because there is so much uncertanties around the first few generations of the Sursills, could you shortly explain the way you can come to the above conclusion? I don't see any problems directly, and it could be fully possible that you're right.

Question 2:
Could Östens wife and Erik Tenelensis wife still be the same?

Greetings from Porvoo,

Lasse Holm

[Tiina Miettinen]

Johannes Bureus sukukirjassaan yhdistää Björnramit Bure-sukuun. Lars Olofsson mainitaan kirjassa sekä hänen jälkeläisiään. Vertasin juuri, että Leif Boströmin sukutaulusto etenee tässä(kin) täsmälleen samoin kuin Bure-kirja. Joten sieltä voi itsekukin kätevästi katsoa sen, miten Johannes Bureus on kirjannut muistiin sukunsa. Se on sitten kokonaan eri asia, että onko Bureuksen esittämille sukuyhteyksille olemassa asiakirjatodisteita.

http://familjenbostrom.se/genealogi/bure/11-400_104.htm#49

[Jouni Kaleva]

Hi Jouni,

Interesting thought, because there is so much uncertanties around the first few generations of the Sursills, could you shortly explain the way you can come to the above conclusion? I don't see any problems directly, and it could be fully possible that you're right.

Question 2:
Could Östens wife and Erik Tenelensis wife still be the same?

Greetings from Porvoo,

Lasse HolmI´ll first try to explain why the Vähäkangas theory would make sense.

-Malin, Erik Ångerman´s daughter was married to a Östen Eriksson, who adopted his father-in-law´s name and trade. This couple got the famous Seven Sursill sisters. Östen also had an illegitimate son Hans who became cantor in Kokkola - this might have happened before his marriage??
Let´s assume that Östen died about 1580. Widowed Malin remarried to Isak Tenalensis - and brought her adolescent children to Finland!
-Malin´s elder sister Catharina had already established her in Finland. She, then, as the Sursilliana book explains, brought her younger brother Carl to Kokkola, supported him and educated him in Turku Cathedral School. If Carl did not belong to the siblings, why would she have done that?

This all makes sense.

Why, then, I feel different?

First the patronyms: do we have positive proof about Malins patronym, or Carls patronym? Or are those only deducted from the given setting? Östen Eriksson is a fact, right?

Then something in the Oulu Testimony 1679 referred. The wittness was extremely accurate in every little detail she gives here. They can be supported be independent sources. Malin is her great-grandmother. Now this fine witted lady testifies:" H:r Carl, warit Broder åth hustru Malin, Östen Erichssons hustru, af hwilken sedan Siu Systrar äre födde, och Slächten sigh vthwijdgadt." Rev. Carl was a brother to Mrs Malin, Östen Erichssons wife, of whom then Seven Sisters are born and family widely spread.

I am looking at what she did not say! I would expect something like "Carl and Malin, whose father was notable man in Umeå" etc....

But like I said, these are only my dim feelings; the facts support Vähäkangas theory better.

[Lasse1951]

I am looking at what she did not say! I would expect something like "Carl and Malin, whose father was notable man in Umeå" etc....

But like I said, these are only my dim feelings; the facts support Vähäkangas theory better.

In this I think that you're on the right track. Just like nowadays, using and mention the right and higher connections would make sense, especially in a court session.

Still, how about Malin/Magdalenas possible two marriges, Östen and Erik Tenalensis.

Lasse

[Jouni Kaleva]

[quote=Lasse1951;91054Still, how about Malin/Magdalenas possible two marriges, Östen and Erik Tenalensis.

Lasse[/quote]
I cannot see any reason why not!

We may have only one Malin with two marriages, whether she was Erik Ångermans daughter or not.

Yet we also may have two separate Malins, one of them Erik Ångermans daughter and Isak Tenalensis´s wife, and the other Malin Östen Eriksson´s wife and Carl Sursill´s brother.

I think the crucial question is: when did Östen Eriksson die?

[Jouni Kaleva]

I cannot see any reason why not!

We may have only one Malin with two marriages, whether she was Erik Ångermans daughter or not.

Yet we also may have two separate Malins, one of them Erik Ångermans daughter and Isak Tenalensis´s wife, and the other Malin Östen Eriksson´s wife and Carl Sursill´s brother.

I think the crucial question is: when did Östen Eriksson die?

At a closer look, there are serious difficulties, if we try to fit the "One Malin - two marriages -theory" with facts.

Östen Eriksson was definitely alive in 1580, right?

At the same time, in Pietarsaari (=Pedersöre) Erik Tenalensis had already been the reverend for 11 years, since 1569. The internet is full of genealogies, which estimate his DOB somewhere around 1520. He already had a son Isak, born around 1550, and also a grandson, Erik Sursill, born about 1578, who was to become a chaplain in Pietarsaari in 1628. (but how likely was it to became a chaplain at the age of 50??...)

So if these dates are supported within a limit marginal of 20 years, it makes it quite impossible, that Östen Erikssons wife Malin could have been Erik Tenalensis´s first wife.

Still it is possible, that she remarried Erik after 1580, and they both would have been once widowed before that.

[Jouni Kaleva]

Then something in the Oulu Testimony 1679 referred. The wittness was extremely accurate in every little detail she gives here. They can be supported be independent sources. Malin is her great-grandmother. Now this fine witted lady testifies:" H:r Carl, warit Broder åth hustru Malin, Östen Erichssons hustru, af hwilken sedan Siu Systrar äre födde, och Slächten sigh vthwijdgadt." Rev. Carl was a brother to Mrs Malin, Östen Erichssons wife, of whom then Seven Sisters are born and family widely spread.

I am looking at what she did not say! I would expect something like "Carl and Malin, whose father was notable man in Umeå" etc....

And more: if the "One Malin - two marriages" was true, one would seriously expect that it would have been mentioned in this Oulu testimony, something like "hustru Malin, Östen Erichsson widow, who then married Erik Tenalensis, reverend in Pietarsaari....."

[petergmdale]

Greetings,

I’m very grateful for all of the insightful and informative posts that have been provided on this thread. I have a few comments and questions. I too feel that, on a balance of probabilities and given the evidence to date, it would appear that Östen Eriksson Sursill was the biological son of Erik Sursill and Dordi and Carolis Eriksson Sursill was his brother-in-law. This seems more likely than not if only because it does not require as many suppositions that lack any evidentiary basis, i.e. Malin being married another 1 or 2 times, etc.

I have a few additional questions:

1. I was unable to appropriately translate the 2 posts regarding the Bure family and its connection (or alleged connection) to Lars Olsson Björnram’s family. I’m still keen to learn if there is any evidence, even anecdotal, that Dordi (assuming she is a descendent of the Bure family) was connected/descended from Jakob Andersson Bure.

2. Assuming that Östen Eriksson Sursill was Erik Sursill and Dordi’s son, is there any evidence that he resided at any time in Finland? If not, is there any explanation as to why his wife Malin Eriksson moved to Umeå? How do we know that she, and apparently her father Erik, were from Laihela/Vasa?

3. What evidence exists that Anna, wife of Carolis Erici Sursill, was from Stockholm and is anything further known about her?

4. Lastly, I am still very interested to learn what specific information is provided by tax, land and property records regarding Erik Sursill and Dordi in Umeå. Are there any other litigation or estate records that reveal information? Do we know if they had any siblings, etc.?

Many thanks again for your, respective, assistance! Kiitos.


Regards,

Pete

[Jouni Kaleva]

.

2. Assuming that Östen Eriksson Sursill was Erik Sursill and Dordi’s son, is there any evidence that he resided at any time in Finland? If not, is there any explanation as to why his wife Malin Eriksson moved to Umeå? How do we know that she, and apparently her father Erik, were from Laihela/Vasa?

Pete
Regardless whose son Östen Eriksson was, we have indication that he had visited Finland, to say the least, in the 1560´s and resided with Carl Sursill.
This here article http://www.genealogia.fi/genos/21/21_2.htm
compares the different proto-Sursilliana handscripts and finds these mentions:

Tj taas ilmoittaa täysin selvästi: »denne Östen (Erichsson) hade och en oächta Son, aflad hoos Brodren Carolum Erici i G:Carleby, Hans Östensson benemd, som blef klåckare der sammastädes».

Terserus-copy cites clearly "this Östen (Erichsson) had as well an illegitimate son, begot while staying with brother Carolus Erici in G:Carleby (=Kokkola), named Hans Östensson who became cantor in the same place."

So this text tells that Östen and Carolus were brothers. This contradicts the later Oulu testimony about Malin and Carolus being sisters.Anyhow, it was (and still is) easy to cross the Gulf of Bothnia and looks like this family circle had tight connections on both sides.

[Jouni Kaleva]

1. I was unable to appropriately translate the 2 posts regarding the Bure family and its connection (or alleged connection) to Lars Olsson Björnram’s family. I’m still keen to learn if there is any evidence, even anecdotal, that Dordi (assuming she is a descendent of the Bure family) was connected/descended from Jakob Andersson Bure.


Pete
Post #17 presented a number of questions on the subject.
Post#19 answers:
Johannes Bureus sukukirjassaan yhdistää Björnramit Bure-sukuun. Lars Olofsson mainitaan kirjassa sekä hänen jälkeläisiään. Vertasin juuri, että Leif Boströmin sukutaulusto etenee tässä(kin) täsmälleen samoin kuin Bure-kirja. Joten sieltä voi itsekukin kätevästi katsoa sen, miten Johannes Bureus on kirjannut muistiin sukunsa. Se on sitten kokonaan eri asia, että onko Bureuksen esittämille sukuyhteyksille olemassa asiakirjatodisteita.

Johannes Bureus in his genealogy book connects the Björnrams with the Bure family. Lars Olofsson is mentioned in the book as well as his descendants. I just compared that Leif Boström tables are identical with the Bure-book. So anybody can conveniently check for himself the way Johannes Bureus has recorded his family. Quite another matter is, whether there documentary proofs for the connections he presents.

[petergmdale]

Greetings,

Thanks again Jouni, Lasse, Tiina, etc. for your advice and commentary. A few more thoughts if you don’t mind:

1. I certainly cannot be the only one that sees the possible parallels between the Bure family in Sweden and the Sursill family in Finland as per the disproportionate representation among Clergy, government and academic family members. I cannot help but hope that we will eventually discover more corroborative evidence in Swedish archival records that will clarify the Bure-Sursill connection if any. One item that I have not been able to understand is whether there was a new/recent discovery with respect the Johan Bureus book from the Finnish National Archives (i.e. Genos 2/2010) versus what had previously been known about his writing (i.e. Genos 13(1942)). I apologize if this is obvious but is has simply been lost in translation for me. I’m trying to determine what, if anything, new or different has been recently discovered regarding the proposed Bure-Sursill relationship/families. Specifically, what exactly did Johan Bureus actually say that may have been different that was previously know regarding the Bure-Sursill families.

2. What evidence exists that Anna, wife of Carolis Erici Sursill, was from Stockholm and is anything further known about her? Where is this information derived?

3. What information is provided by tax, land and property records regarding Erik Sursill and Dordi in Umeå. Do any litigation or estate records regarding the family exist?

Many thanks again.

Cheers,

Pete

[Jouni Kaleva]

1. I certainly cannot be the only one that sees the possible parallels between the Bure family in Sweden and the Sursill family in Finland as per the disproportionate representation among Clergy, government and academic family members. I cannot help but hope that we will eventually discover more corroborative evidence in Swedish archival records that will clarify the Bure-Sursill connection if any. One item that I have not been able to understand is whether there was a new/recent discovery with respect the Johan Bureus book from the Finnish National Archives (i.e. Genos 2/2010) versus what had previously been known about his writing (i.e. Genos 13(1942)). I apologize if this is obvious but is has simply been lost in translation for me. I’m trying to determine what, if anything, new or different has been recently discovered regarding the proposed Bure-Sursill relationship/families. Specifically, what exactly did Johan Bureus actually say that may have been different that was previously know regarding the Bure-Sursill families.

Pete
I suppose you mean Genos 3/2010 article Kuka löysi Sursillien suvun? (Who found the Sursill family?) by Tiina Miettinen.

In the article there is the newlyfound copy of Johannes Bureus manuscript, which brouht into daylight the once in Finland forgotten mention about the Sursill family (using different terms, though). This copy may be even original by Johannes Bureus, in any case very early. (very authentical, that is to say, from the early 1600´s).

There is a sentence, in close-up picture on page 82:

Samblige mene at then store Slächten i Österbotn sö är ifrå Theegh. antingen Erik Ångermans hustrus (Dordijs) fader ?????, skall wara af Bure ätten.

Some mean that the large Family in Osthrobothnia is from Theegh. Or Erik Ångermans wife´s (Dordi´s) father ??? shall be of Bure family.

This is known slightly differently elsewhere (pls see the link in here post #19).

I feel, the ??? could represent the name on Dordi´s father. Henrich?? But by no means Anders.

[petergmdale]

Greetings,

That was very helpful and makes this whole discussion much more understandable. This book was, obviously, a very exciting find. Speaking optimistically, one would hope that there are other exciting finds to be made in both Finland and in Swedish archives, churches, etc.

I’ve been reading lately about how Johan Bure’s genealogy was dismissed as mere myth during the 19th century. This stigma seems to have reduced thoughtful and academic review of his more contemporary genealogies/histories (i.e. http://www.falebure.se/kommentar.html (http://www.falebure.se/kommentar.html)). Others have argued that the Bure book has had quite a bit of corroboration with respect to the more contemporary individuals discussed therein (i.e. http://www.genealogi.se/bure.htm (http://www.genealogi.se/bure.htm)). I found the presence of Sjögren-Larsson syndrome in both northern Sweden and in Medelpad and its prevalence in the Bure family to be fascinating tangential corroboration that there may be a grain of truth to some of the more ancient family histories!

With respect to the unintelligible word in the recently discovered Bure book, has there been any other conjecture as to its meaning? For example, any other Christian names put forth or other thoughts on what it says or means?

Has anyone estimated the population size of Teg in the early 1500s and the proximity of Erik Sursill and Dordi’s farm to Elin Jakobsdotter Bure’s farm? I’m having some fun with this issue! I recognize that absent DNA evidence or other historically revealing records this is an exercise in educated guesswork.

Cheers,

Pete

[petergmdale]

Just a further brief follow-up to my e-mail above. Thank you Jouni for explaining what, I’m sure, was obvious to everyone else. My apologies for my unilingualism. I’m still very interested in anyone’s thoughts and references regarding the following:

1. the evidence, if any, corroborating that Anna, wife of Carolis Erici Sursill, was from Stockholm. Further query, is anything further known about her?; and

2. what information is provided by tax, land and property records regarding Erik Sursill and Dordi in Umeå. Do any litigation or estate records regarding the family exist?

Kiitos!

Pete

[Lasse1951]

Just a further brief follow-up to my e-mail above. Thank you Jouni for explaining what, I’m sure, was obvious to everyone else. My apologies for my unilingualism. I’m still very interested in anyone’s thoughts and references regarding the following:

1. the evidence, if any, corroborating that Anna, wife of Carolis Erici Sursill, was from Stockholm. Further query, is anything further known about her?; and

2. what information is provided by tax, land and property records regarding Erik Sursill and Dordi in Umeå. Do any litigation or estate records regarding the family exist?

Kiitos!

Pete

Hi Pete,

Just a short notice.

You don't need to crosspost the same post to many threads.
We who follows these things find your posts always among the New Post choice:-)

Lasse

[petergmdale]

Hi Lasse,

Thank you for the tip!

Cheers,

Pete

[petergmdale]

Greetings,

I trust everyone is having an enjoyable summer. As part of my genealogical research I try to establish historical, empirical and factual basis for the various proposed stages of my respective ancestors lives. Like many Finns, I’m also a descendent of Erik Angerman Sursill and his wife Dordi. I have not, however, discovered any evidence whatsoever regarding Erik’s time in Teg, Umea. I understand, however, that there were/are land/taxation records available that have referenced him. I’d be grateful if anyone could provide me with a link to, or summary of, the land/taxation references to Erik and his son Osten. I’d like to include such information in the my family genealogy which I’m in the process of researching and preparing. Any other land, taxation or legal (court) records regarding Erik, Dordi or their children would be much appreciated.

Secondly, I have struggled to establish what is the historical/factual basis for the claim that Erik Angerman Sursill’s son (son-in-law) Carolus Erici Sursill’s (Clergyman of Kokkola) wife was named ‘Anna’ and that she was from Stockholm.

Many thanks in advance for your kind assistance. Kiitos!

Cheers,

Pete

[LP72]

Hi,

This is a very interesting reading, and I am also an descendant from this Sursill-family (and perhaps the Bures as well if there's any link between them..) :) My guess is Dordis father could be Jakob Andersson Bure because the name Dordi/Dorde is mentioned amongst his great-grandchildren. It's also an connection from them to Lars Olofsson Björnram who is mentioned in this, as he was married to one of Jakob Anderssons granddaughter Anna Andersdotter Grubb, if I have the information right...

In the earliest tax records, "Landskapshandlingarna" (available at www.svar.ra.se (http://www.svar.ra.se) ) I have found Erik Ångerman and Östen Eriksson at the same page in Teg, Umeå in "Bogskattelängden" (I don't know the english word for that kind) as late as 1546. Therefore I think he really was his son and not the son-in-law, but it's not any hard evidence...

But perhaps the name Sursill is from Östens wifes side..? Her brother Carl Eriksson is proven in the documents to have used the name and hers (and Östens) descendants too, but is there any proof of that Erik Ångerman really had that name, more than from the legends? It's quite obvious that there is two different Erik, in my point of view, but who the father of Carl and Malin was is the question, at least not the same as Erik Ångerman, who still is Östens father in my book...

- Leif (Stockholm, sweden)

[petergmdale]

Hi Leif,

Thank you for the interesting post. If you are able to cut and paste a photo or link to a copy of the tax records showing both Erik and Östen that would be great to review.

As far as Carl and Malin being siblings as opposed to Carl and Östen being brothers, it appears to me that there is evidence for both positions. I, like you, tend to believe that Östen was Erik Ångerman’s son. There could, of course, have been 2 Östen Erikssons which would certain complicate things. It is possible that the individual who referenced Carl and Malin being siblings in a legal proceeding was simply mistaken as I believe this is the only evidence which supports the Carl-Malin sibling theory.

Perhaps this mystery will be sorted out someday!

Cheers,

Pete

[LP72]

I'll try one image from the tax records here... It's from the Bogskattelängd for Umeå parish in 1546:5 and page 58v, and there you can see both Erik Ångerman and Östen Eriksson (Ersson) below him, if I have read it correctly... http://suku.genealogia.fi/attachment.php?attachmentid=2101&stc=1&d=1318749618

[LP72]

But I have also seen them in another page where they aren't together like this (above), and Östen is a couple of names above Erik... The image is from Västerbottens handlingar 1543:2 page 44.

http://suku.genealogia.fi/attachment.php?attachmentid=2102&stc=1&d=1318750136

[LP72]

And one more, as early as 1539 we have them both from "Teegh"...
http://suku.genealogia.fi/attachment.php?attachmentid=2103&stc=1&d=1318761434

This should mean that this Östen eriksson is at least 15 years old here, and strong enough to use a bow, grown enough to pay the tax (a squirrel fur). See this link (in swedish) http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%C3%A5gaskatt Or is it perhaps an older relative or only a neighbour in the village..?

[TapioV]

And one more, as early as 1539 we have them both from "Teegh"...
http://suku.genealogia.fi/attachment.php?attachmentid=2103&stc=1&d=1318761434

This should mean that this Östen eriksson is at least 15 years old here, and strong enough to use a bow, grown enough to pay the tax (a squirrel fur). See this link (in swedish) http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%C3%A5gaskatt Or is it perhaps an older relative or only a neighbour in the village..?

Katsokaapa muutkin näitä veronkantolutteloiden kuvia. Minusta niissä ei ole Östen eriksson vaan östen person tai östen Pson. Oletteko samma mieltä?
T.V.

[Tiina Miettinen]

Yes, I think that Tapio is right. There is no "Östen Ersson". I also find only Östen Hindriksson, P. Ersson and Lasse Ersson....

[LP72]

You could of course be right, it's not very easy this old handstyle... But I see "Östen Eriks" or something like that, just as the top names only is "Lars" for Larsson..? I can also read "Bengt Gudmunds" as number 5 from top..?

[petergmdale]

Greetings,

I have been following-the posts but am uncertain whether there is a consensus that either Erik Ångerman and/or Östen Eriksson’s names appear in the referenced records. I will clearly have to work on my transcription skills! I would appreciate clarification. Thank you.

Cheers,

Pete

[Lasse1951]

Katsokaapa muutkin näitä veronkantolutteloiden kuvia. Minusta niissä ei ole Östen eriksson vaan östen person tai östen Pson. Oletteko samma mieltä?
T.V.

My reading skills of those handwritings are about zero, but I do believe that Tapio have the skills required, even for those.
My questions are have anybody else found any other old documents where Erik and Östen are mentioned?

Lasse Holm

[LP72]

Ok, you are right about the surname, it should be "P son". Sorry about the confusion here. :oo:

Another page from the "Bow tax" in Umeå 1548:3 shows that there is no Östen P[eder]sson any more along with Erik Ångerman, instead there is two other people below him, "Lasse Östenss" and a "P[eder] Östenss". They should probably be two brothers, sons of the previous Östen in Teg. And it looks the same for the years 1549-1552.
http://suku.genealogia.fi/attachment.php?attachmentid=2106&stc=1&d=1318850034

In the later tax records for Umeå 1553:2 in Västerteg there is only Östen Ersson, with Lasse Östensson and Peder Östensson below him.
http://suku.genealogia.fi/attachment.php?attachmentid=2107&stc=1&d=1318850072

[Lasse1951]

Ok, you are right about the surname, it should be "P son". Sorry about the confusion here. :oo:

Another page from the "Bow tax" in Umeå 1548:3 shows that there is no Östen P[eder]sson any more along with Erik Ångerman, instead there is two other people below him, "Lasse Östenss" and a "P[eder] Östenss". They should probably be two brothers, sons of the previous Östen in Teg. And it looks the same for the years 1549-1552.
http://suku.genealogia.fi/attachment.php?attachmentid=2106&stc=1&d=1318850034

In the later tax records for Umeå 1553:2 in Västerteg there is only Östen Ersson, with Lasse Östensson and Peder Östensson below him.
http://suku.genealogia.fi/attachment.php?attachmentid=2107&stc=1&d=1318850072

Hi,

Is this to be understanded that Östen Eriksson Sursill, had two more sons not mentioned in the Sursilliana? Lasse and Peder / Per.
Is it possible to draw any conclutions about those two's about birthyears? Can they be traced forward in time?

Lasse Holm

[LP72]

Hi Lasse,

No, I was wrong before and it wasn't "our" Östen Eriksson that I had found... My guess now is that these two Östenssons is from another family, and their father was the Östen Pedersson/Persson that I found before (se my earlier comment today). I also think they could be a little bit older than "our" Östen Eriksson (Sursill), because they appears in the records some years before him, but perhaps they are related in some way..?

[petergmdale]

Greetings,

Just checking in to see if there has been any progress or new information with respect to the Sursill (and, perhaps, Bure) family in the past few years. I’d be most grateful for any update or additional information. Many thanks.

Cheers,

Pete

[Erkki A Tikkanen]

Greetings,

Just checking in to see if there has been any progress or new information with respect to the Sursill (and, perhaps, Bure) family in the past few years. I’d be most grateful for any update or additional information. Many thanks.

Cheers,

Pete

Hi Pete,

have you already checked this book/DVD?

http://www.genealogi.net/projekt/johan-bures-slaktbok/

[petergmdale]

Greetings,

Thanks Erkki – much appreciated. On an unrelated topic, I’ve been stuck on my Platzman family research for quite a few years now. I am interesting in hiring a professional Finnish genealogist to research the family and background of my ancestor Kristoffer Platzman (please see - http://www.helsinki.fi/ylioppilasmatrikkeli/henkilo.php?id=1688). Can anyone please kindly recommend a competent researcher who may assist me? Please advise and thank you.

Regards,

Pete