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Arkistonäkymässä ei tällä hetkellä lainaus erotu varsinaisesta viestistä. Suosittelemme että vilkaisette ns. täydellistä versiota: : Lithovius / Limingius / Sinius


petergmdale
07.08.10, 07:25
Minulla on kolme kysymystä:

(1) Olen jälkeläinen Henrik Larsson Lithovius syntynyt noin 1540 kylässä Kaarina Littoinens (isä Johan Henriksson Corvinus / Limingius / Lithovius, joka oli naimisissa Christina Östensdotter Sursill). Olen utelias, onko Kaarina Littoinens oli ruotsinkielinen osa Suomen ja onko Henrik Lithovius oli etnisesti suomalainen tai ruotsalainen, suomalainen, jonka esi-isät (ainakin osittain) muutti Ruotsista Suomessa. Tietääkö kukaan mitään lisätietoja Henrikin isä Lars Lithovius syntynyt noin 1500 Kaarinassa Littoinens?

(2) Olen myös jälkeläinen Ljungo Thomae Limingius syntynyt Limingassa ja kuoli 1610/1611 Nyköpingissä, Ruotsissa. Hän oli pappi Pyhäjoen - 1576-1581 ja pappi ja Saloisista - 1581-1592 ja dekaani Pohjois-Pohjanmaalla. Ymmärrän, että hänen isänsä oli Thomas Ingonis pappi Limingan 1547-1574 ja dekaani Pohjanmaan ainakin 1555. Olen utelias, onko Liminka oli ruotsinkielinen osa Suomen ja onko Ljungo oli etnisesti suomalainen tai ruotsalainen, suomalainen. Tietääkö kukaan mitään lisätietoja vanhemmuuden Thomas Ingonis, hänen vaimonsa Dordi tai Ljungo vaimo Margaretha Nilssdotter?

(3) Lopuksi Olen jälkeläinen Hans Larsson Sinius, joka oli talon isäntää ja Siniluoto-kylän Salon seurakunnan Saloisista ja Porvari Oulussa syntynyt noin 1575-1582 ja hänen sisarensa Anna Larsdotter Sinius. Ymmärrän, että hänen isänsä oli Lars Sinius vuodesta Siniluoto, Salo. Olen utelias, onko Siniluoto, Salo oli ruotsinkielinen osa Suomen ja onko Hans oli etnisesti suomalainen tai ruotsalainen, suomalainen. Tietääkö kukaan mitään lisätietoja vanhemmuuden Lars Sinius? Olen lukenut kommentit, että hän oli poika hollantilainen maahanmuuttaja Tukholmaan nimetty Govert Silentz mutta nähnyt mitään asiakirjoja tai todistusaineistoa perusteella tätä päätelmää.

Olisin kiitollinen lisätiedot tutkimus ehdotuksia tai korjauksia. Paljon kiitoksia.

Pete

- English -

I have three questions:

(1) I’m a descendent of Henrik Larsson Lithovius born approximately 1540 in the village of Kaarina Littoinens (father of Johan Henriksson Corvinus/Limingius/Lithovius who was married to Christina Östensdotter Sursill). I’m curious whether Kaarina Littoinens was a Swedish speaking part of Finland and whether Henrik Lithovius was ethnically Finnish or a Swedish-Finn whose ancestors (in part at least) emigrated from Sweden to Finland. Does anyone know any additional information about Henrik’s father Lars Lithovius born approximately 1500 in Kaarina Littoinens?

(2) I’m also a descendent of Ljungo Thomae Limingius born in Liminka and died 1610/1611 in Nyköping, Sweden. He was the Clergyman of Pyhäjoki - 1576-1581 and the Clergyman of Saloinen - 1581-1592 and Dean of Northern Ostrobothnia. I understand that his father was Thomas Ingonis the Clergyman of Liminka 1547-1574 and Dean of Ostrobothnia from at least 1555. I’m curious whether Liminka was a Swedish speaking part of Finland and whether Ljungo was ethnically Finnish or a Swedish-Finn. Does anyone know any additional information regarding the parentage of Thomas Ingonis, his wife Dordi or Ljungo’s wife Margaretha Nilssdotter?

(3) Lastly, I’m a descendent of Hans Larsson Sinius who was the Master of the house of Siniluoto of the village of Salo in the Parish of Saloinen and a Burgher in Oulu born approximately 1575-1582 and his sister Anna Larsdotter Sinius. I understand that his father was Lars Sinius from Siniluoto, Salo. I’m curious whether Siniluoto, Salo was a Swedish speaking part of Finland and whether Hans was ethnically Finnish or a Swedish-Finn. Does anyone know any additional information regarding the parentage of Lars Sinius? I have read commentary that he was the son of a Dutch immigrant to Stockholm named Govert Silentz but have seen no documentary or evidentiary basis for this conclusion.

I’d be grateful for any additional information, research suggestions or corrections. Many thanks.

Pete

Jouni Kaleva
07.08.10, 13:35
Hi Pete

I try to furnish you with some at least partial answers to your questions. You must be aware that these families are at the very core of Finnish genealogy. The Sursill family was the first one to be comprehensively recorded very early in the history. Yet your questions deal with the dim details of the first generations of these families. There are certain controversies as to who was really who etc. So nobody has a perfect answer, I think.

(1) I’m a descendent of Henrik Larsson Lithovius born approximately 1540 in the village of Kaarina Littoinens (father of Johan Henriksson Corvinus/Limingius/Lithovius who was married to Christina Östensdotter Sursill). I’m curious whether Kaarina Littoinens was a Swedish speaking part of Finland and whether Henrik Lithovius was ethnically Finnish or a Swedish-Finn whose ancestors (in part at least) emigrated from Sweden to Finland. Does anyone know any additional information about Henrik’s father Lars Lithovius born approximately 1500 in Kaarina Littoinens?The village Littoinen in the parish of Kaarina lies next to Finland´s main city of the era, Turku (only 5km off the Cathedral). These all have Swedish name forms as well: Littois, St. Carins, Åbo. The official language of the State was Swedish, it was used by government and clergy. The native Finnish inhabitants spoke Finnish. Henrik´s father Lars is known to have run on lease a farm, which evidently belonged to the church. He must have spoken Swedish, yet that does not prove that he wasn´t Finnish, ethnically. The name Lithovius is Latin for "coming from/originating in Littois". It is probable, that Lars did not use any such "family" name. It was only assumed by his son, when he became a student and later part of the clergy - just to indicate where he initiated from. So the answer to the language and ethnicity: yes or know, we cannot be sure. Still the parish of Liminka, where Henrik ended, must have been purely Finnish in language and ethnicity. To be able to cope there, Henrik must at least have had a good command of Finnish language. Most educated persons of the era where bilingual in these areas, just like today. You could compare this with the French-English parts of Canada.

(2) I’m also a descendent of Ljungo Thomae Limingius born in Liminka and died 1610/1611 in Nyköping, Sweden. He was the Clergyman of Pyhäjoki - 1576-1581 and the Clergyman of Saloinen - 1581-1592 and Dean of Northern Ostrobothnia. I understand that his father was Thomas Ingonis the Clergyman of Liminka 1547-1574 and Dean of Ostrobothnia from at least 1555. I’m curious whether Liminka was a Swedish speaking part of Finland and whether Ljungo was ethnically Finnish or a Swedish-Finn. Does anyone know any additional information regarding the parentage of Thomas Ingonis, his wife Dordi or Ljungo’s wife Margaretha Nilssdotter?Liminka and Pyhäjoki where mainly Finnish. A thin layer of government officials etc. used Swedish. Ljungo Thomae is famous for his translations of central law texts from Swedish into Finnish. The Finnish versions show traits of local Finnish accent only attainable to someone native in that language. Thus: Ljungo spoke Finnish as mother tongue. The name Limingius, again, is Latin for "originating from Liminka" This name is not used by Ljungo himself, as far as I know.

(3) Lastly, I’m a descendent of Hans Larsson Sinius who was the Master of the house of Siniluoto of the village of Salo in the Parish of Saloinen and a Burgher in Oulu born approximately 1575-1582 and his sister Anna Larsdotter Sinius. I understand that his father was Lars Sinius from Siniluoto, Salo. I’m curious whether Siniluoto, Salo was a Swedish speaking part of Finland and whether Hans was ethnically Finnish or a Swedish-Finn. Does anyone know any additional information regarding the parentage of Lars Sinius? I have read commentary that he was the son of a Dutch immigrant to Stockholm named Govert Silentz but have seen no documentary or evidentiary basis for this conclusion.
Siniluoto, Salo was Finnish as well as the neighboring Liminka and Pyhäjoki. Hans, as a local farmer should have been Finnish in language and ethnicity. Yet his personage and descendency are controversial, even his very existence!
Your information on his Dutch ancestry sounds far fetched. I have never heard it before! This would need a very good documentation, indeed, to be appreciated as the truth!

olanyk
07.08.10, 13:35
Kysmyksesi on pohdituttanut monia aikaisemmin ja voi olla ettei tietoja ole. Kerron oman käsitykseni ja joskus esittämiäni hypoteeseja (arveluja). Engalantini on sen verran huonoa että kirjoitan suomeksi.

(1) Olen jälkeläinen Henrik Larsson Lithovius syntynyt noin 1540 kylässä Kaarina Littoinens (isä Johan Henriksson Corvinus / Limingius / Lithovius, joka oli naimisissa Christina Östensdotter Sursill). Olen utelias, onko Kaarina Littoinens oli ruotsinkielinen osa Suomen ja onko Henrik Lithovius oli etnisesti suomalainen tai ruotsalainen, suomalainen, jonka esi-isät (ainakin osittain) muutti Ruotsista Suomessa. Tietääkö kukaan mitään lisätietoja Henrikin isä Lars Lithovius syntynyt noin 1500 Kaarinassa Littoinens?


Suomi oli osa Ruotsia sekä kirkon että valtion-/kunnalinen hallinto (joihin mainitsemasi esi-isäsi kuului) tapahtu ruotsinkielellä ja se oli luokkayhteiskunnassa säätyläisten kieli. Suomi oli rahvaan (talonpoikien) kieli. Noihin aikoihin vasta kehittettiin suomen kirjakieli (Agricola). Juuri Ljungo Thomanpoika tunnetaan ensimäisen maalain suomentajana. Yliopisto opiskelu tapahtui Ruotsissa ja Euroopassa. Ruotsin kieli on säilynyt saaristossa ja osalla rannikooalueista myös talonpoikien äidinkielenä näihinpäiviin saakka. Mutta todellisuusdessa äidinkieli vaihtuu suvuissa näinäkin päivinä avioliitoissa tapahtuvan valinnan mukaan. Minun mielestä Suomessa puhutaan helposti nykymaantiedon mukaan ruotsalaisista ja sakasalaisista vaikka mm. 1400-luvun Unioniaikana Suomeen tuli paljon tanskalaisperäisiä sukuja ja taisi Skone kulua Tanskaan. Vastaavasti saksanakielisiä kauppiaita ja tuli nykyisestä silloin suuresta Latviasta, nyky Puolasta ja Eestistä. Genettisesti suomalaiset ovat kai vahvasti eurooppalaisia ja ehkä ei pitäisi puhua "etnisesti" jakautuneista suomalaisiat äidinkielen mukaan.

Kaarina Lounais-Suomessa on käsittääkseni selkeästi kaksikielistä aluetta. Henrikin isä ja veli viljeli lampuotina (vuokraviljelijänä) viljellen Turun tuomiokirkossa toimineen Pyhän Annan Alttarin omistamaa (saamaa) tilaa. Suomessa oli tuolloin maaomaisuus katollisen kirkon hallussa ja Kustaa Vaasa noihin aikoihin otti luterilaisen uskon "valtionuskoksi" ja palautti niin maa kuin muutakin omaisuutta kruunulle, käytännössä tuolloin perintökunikuuden myötä suvulleen.

Kun tiedetään Limingassa olleen luostarille (kirkolle) lahjoitettua maata olen joskus pohtinut olisko Lithoviusten tulo sinne jotenkin liittynyt siihen?

(2) Olen myös jälkeläinen Ljungo Thomae Limingius syntynyt Limingassa ja kuoli 1610/1611 Nyköpingissä, Ruotsissa. Hän oli pappi Pyhäjoen - 1576-1581 ja pappi ja Saloisista - 1581-1592 ja dekaani Pohjois-Pohjanmaalla. Ymmärrän, että hänen isänsä oli Thomas Ingonis pappi Limingan 1547-1574 ja dekaani Pohjanmaan ainakin 1555. Olen utelias, onko Liminka oli ruotsinkielinen osa Suomen ja onko Ljungo oli etnisesti suomalainen tai ruotsalainen, suomalainen. Tietääkö kukaan mitään lisätietoja vanhemmuuden Thomas Ingonis, hänen vaimonsa Dordi tai Ljungo vaimo Margaretha Nilssdotter?


Talonpoikien käyttämänä Ruotsinkielinen alue päättyy nykyisinkin etelämpänä Kokkolan pohjoispuolelle. Tuolloin säätyläisten (pappien, virkamiesten ja kauppiaiden) kotikieli oli varmaan Liminka Oulun alueella ruotsi. Mutta juuri Pohjanmaan ja Itä-Suomen väestön takia kehittyi kirjoitettu ja painettu Suomen kieli. Juuri Pohjanmaalla tehtiin suomi-ruotsi sanakirjaa, käännettiin maalakia ja myös Valtiopäivien päätöksiä luettiin suomeksi.

Thomas Ingoniksen syntyperää olen joskus pohtinut. Jostain nimen mukaan on päätelty hänen syntyperäänsä. Kuitenkin Ingo Ingold Ingevald nimeä on esintynyt Suomen halintosuvuilla. Mm Djänk suvussa. Mielenkiintoinen tutkimus kohde yleensä olisi Pohjan maan suhteen Gävlen. Siellä oli pormestari Jöns Ingevaldsson jonka leski (? vai toisin päin) avioitui tietääkseni pormestari Bertil Krögerin kanssa ja jonka poika tuli Ouluun ollen kauppias ja pormestari siellä.

Olen esittänyt arvion (hypoteesin) että Henrik Lithoviuksen ensimmäinen puoliso olisi ollut Ljungo Thomanpojan sisar, Henrik tuli Limingan kirkkoherraksi n. 1575 ja Ljungo Pyhäjoen 1576. Kirkoherran virat tuolloin saatiin joko avioitumalla lesken tai tyttären kanssa jos papilla ei ollut omaa poikaa. Sen hyvin ymmärtää olihan pappilan pitäjissä harvoja mallitiloja mm kruunun virkamiehien majoitukseen kelpaavia taloja.

(3) Lopuksi Olen jälkeläinen Hans Larsson Sinius, joka oli talon isäntää ja Siniluoto-kylän Salon seurakunnan Saloisista ja Porvari Oulussa syntynyt noin 1575-1582 ja hänen sisarensa Anna Larsdotter Sinius. Ymmärrän, että hänen isänsä oli Lars Sinius vuodesta Siniluoto, Salo. Olen utelias, onko Siniluoto, Salo oli ruotsinkielinen osa Suomen ja onko Hans oli etnisesti suomalainen tai ruotsalainen, suomalainen. Tietääkö kukaan mitään lisätietoja vanhemmuuden Lars Sinius? Olen lukenut kommentit, että hän oli poika hollantilainen maahanmuuttaja Tukholmaan nimetty Govert Silentz mutta nähnyt mitään asiakirjoja tai todistusaineistoa perusteella tätä päätelmää.

Salo Saloinen nykyinen Raahen seutu oli ja on talonpoikien osalta suomenkielistä aluetta. Siniukset varmaan taisi tehtäviensä takia ruotsinkielen.

Siniustenkin sanotaan liittyvän Fodelleihin ilmeiseti Siniluodon (paikan) peruteella. Onkohan Hannun isää Larsia jossain sanottu Lampuodiksi (vuokraviljelijäksi)? Hannun puolison Anna Hansintyttären syntyperää ei tunneta mutta hänellä on ollut "arvokkaampi" istumapaikka Oulun kirkossa kuin Hannulla.

Raahen seudulla vaikuttaneet Juusola ja Houru Hofren suvut liittyvät Fordell sukuun, alkaen Brita Jönsintytär Fordelista alkaen. Vuonna 1499 oli tehty maakauppa (koskien noita Saloisten tiloja) valtionhoitaja Sten Sturen ja Jöns Fordellin välillä tapahtui todennäköisesti Tukholmassa, kun Jöns Fordell oli Pohjois-Suomen edustajana kuninkaanvaalissa.

Itse en ole kuulunut hollantilaisuudesta aiemmin, ulkomaankaupankäynnin seurauksena tuonajan Ruotsiin tuli niin Sakasata kuin Hollanista kauppa ? "kestejä" avioituen täällä kauppiassukuihin.


Olavi

Pauli
07.08.10, 14:27
Your information on his Dutch ancestry sounds far fetched. I have never heard it before! This would need a very good documentation, indeed, to be appreciated as the truth!

There's another Sinius family in Sweden. They are descendants of the dutch merchant Govert Silenz. He moved to Stockholm and lived there in the 16th century. There's no connection between these two families with the same surname.

Matti Lund
09.08.10, 12:10
Minulla on kolme kysymystä:

(1) Olen jälkeläinen Henrik Larsson Lithovius syntynyt noin 1540 kylässä Kaarina Littoinens (isä Johan Henriksson Corvinus / Limingius / Lithovius, joka oli naimisissa Christina Östensdotter Sursill). Olen utelias, onko Kaarina Littoinens oli ruotsinkielinen osa Suomen ja onko Henrik Lithovius oli etnisesti suomalainen tai ruotsalainen, suomalainen, jonka esi-isät (ainakin osittain) muutti Ruotsista Suomessa. Tietääkö kukaan mitään lisätietoja Henrikin isä Lars Lithovius syntynyt noin 1500 Kaarinassa Littoinens?


Olisin kiitollinen lisätiedot tutkimus ehdotuksia tai korjauksia. Paljon kiitoksia.

Pete

- English -

I have three questions:

(1) I’m a descendent of Henrik Larsson Lithovius born approximately 1540 in the village of Kaarina Littoinens (father of Johan Henriksson Corvinus/Limingius/Lithovius who was married to Christina Östensdotter Sursill). I’m curious whether Kaarina Littoinens was a Swedish speaking part of Finland and whether Henrik Lithovius was ethnically Finnish or a Swedish-Finn whose ancestors (in part at least) emigrated from Sweden to Finland. Does anyone know any additional information about Henrik’s father Lars Lithovius born approximately 1500 in Kaarina Littoinens?

I’d be grateful for any additional information, research suggestions or corrections. Many thanks.

Pete

I try to answer to Your first question as for the ancient Littoinen village.

I myself have inhabited some thirty years very near to Littoinen (half a mile from villages' border to Turku) and there do inhabit some relatives and familiar people to me, too. So it's also quite familiar to me as a surroundings, because I visit there often and go through almost every day.

In ancient days Littoinen was a pure finnish countryside around a lake some couple hours way from Turku (It's now ten kilometers to Turku but couple kilometers more in those days, its' district is some four kilometers to different directions). Its' scenery is beautiful here and there.

Undoubtly it has been fully finnish speaking yet long after Turku, although situated rather near by, began to develop to a twospeaking town. It seems that this has had a poor and slow impact for Littoinen's finnish speaking inhabitants. I simply argue this holding in my mind that Littoinen is a very ancient agricultural place and all its' places own purely finnish names (as owns itself). Please, take look for it from a city map and compare it to some communities near it and You see clear difference (there are also swedish originating names in that neighbourhood).

Best Regards Matti Lund

petergmdale
31.05.11, 05:33
Greetings,

I’m trying to reconcile 2 entries in the Finnish National Biography series. The first reads as follows:

The Finnish National Biography Centre states the following with respect to ‘Svart, Henricus Laurentii (he is mentioned 1561–1565)/Henrik Larsson’:

“It is ‘fairly sure’ that Henrik was born in Saloinen. His parents were a Farmer and Country Shopkeeper in Saloinen, Salo village Lars Svart, in other words Musta Lauri, and N.N (Luukko 1954 Blomstedt).” (source: http://www.kansallisbiografia.fi/paimenmuisto/?eid=2418 (http://www.kansallisbiografia.fi/paimenmuisto/?eid=2418))

The second reads:

The Finnish National Biography Centre states the following with respect to ‘Lithovius, Henricus Laurentii (died 1615)/Henrik Larsson’:

“Henricus was born in Kaarina. He was a Farmer’s son from the village of Littoinen from which he acquired his last name.” (source: http://www.kansallisbiografia.fi/paimenmuisto/?eid=1480 (http://www.kansallisbiografia.fi/paimenmuisto/?eid=1480))

The Wikipedia entry for Saloinen states:

“Henricus Laurentii Svart, in other words Musta 1561–1565, local Fordell family”. (source: http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saloisten_kirkko (http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saloisten_kirkko))

Another descendent of Henricus Laurentii states in an e-mail to me dated September 1, 2010, with respect to Lars, the following: “Lars was a Farmer from 1558 to 1571 in the area called the Altar of St. Anne, Littoinen in Canton Kaarina. His children were: (1) Michael, a farmer from 1571 to 1593 in the area of the Altar of St. Anne, mentioned in 1571 as the richest farmer in the township of Kaarina; and (2) Henric.”

Further, Martti Strang states: “Lars was a farmer from the village of Littois in the parish of St. Carins. He lived in the 1400-1500s. An individual named "Black Lauri" of Salo is recorded in 1493-1548. Perhaps this is the same person as Lars Jakobsson Swart Vehmaa or a relative. (source: http://www.strang.ch/SUKU/Strang-esivanhemmat.htm (http://www.strang.ch/SUKU/Strang-esivanhemmat.htm))

My questions are as follows:

1. Is Henricus Laurentii Svart from Saloinen the same individual as Henricus Laurentii Lithovius? If not, it appears there are 2 individuals who are sometimes confused.

2. If they are indeed one and the same individual, where did they originate? Is there any evidence but for the name “Lithovius” that Henricus Laurentii Lithovius originated in Kaarina, Littoinen?

3. Who was Lars Svart (Musta Lauri) and where did he live? Is there any evidence that he is the father of Henricus Laurentii Svart/Lithovius? Is there any additional information on him available?

Many thanks.

Regards,

Pete

petergmdale
31.05.11, 21:47
Any thoughts regarding the questions above? My questions were:

1. Is the Clergyman Henricus Laurentii Svart from Saloinen (1561-1565) the same individual as Henricus Laurentii Lithovius, the Clergyman of Liminka, who died in 1615?

2. If they are indeed one and the same individual, where did they originate? The biography for Henricus Laurentii Svart states he may be from Saloinen (source: http://www.kansallisbiografia.fi/paimenmuisto/?eid=2418 (http://www.kansallisbiografia.fi/paimenmuisto/?eid=2418)). The biography for Henricus Laurentii Lithovius states he was from Kaarina Littoinen (source: http://www.kansallisbiografia.fi/paimenmuisto/?eid=1480 (http://www.kansallisbiografia.fi/paimenmuisto/?eid=1480)). (http://www.kansallisbiografia.fi/paimenmuisto/?eid=1480)

3. Is there any evidence, but for the name “Lithovius”, that Henricus Laurentii Lithovius originated in Kaarina, Littoinen?

4. Who was Lars Svart (Musta Lauri) (see my comments above) and where did he live? Is there any evidence that he is the father of Henricus Laurentii Svart/Lithovius? Is there any additional information on him available?

Kiitos!

Pete

Jouni Kaleva
31.05.11, 22:05
Any thoughts regarding the questions above? My questions were:

1. Is the Clergyman Henricus Laurentii Svart from Saloinen (1561-1565) the same individual as Henricus Laurentii Lithovius, the Clergyman of Liminka, who died in 1615?

Kiitos!

Pete
Hi

I´m convinced, we have two separate Henricus Laurentii here.
Their respective fathers would be just the way you cited the National Biography.

In a letter by king Johan III dated 5.3.1575 concerning a reverend Henricus Erici in Pyhäjoki, there is also a mention about a reverend Hendrich in Salo. (these are neighboring parishes). The latter evidently is Henrik Olai, whose privileges a reverend in Salo were confirmed in king Erik´s letter in 3.7.1566. His predecessor had been Henrik Laurentii Svart who was mentioned in king Erik XIV:s letter in 1564.

Now the reverend of Liminka parish had been Thomas Ingonis until 1574. He was followed by Henricus Laurentii (Lithovius) who was granted his privileges by a letter of king Johan III in 10.4.1575.

My conclusion: Henrik Laurentii Svart disappeared from Salo by 1566. He probably died. Henricus Laurentii Lithovius first appeared in Liminka in 1575. Nine year interval is too long for these to be one and same individual.

One thing is evident: Henrik was a very popular name among the priests of the era

petergmdale
31.05.11, 22:54
Hi Jouni,

Your thoughts make eminent sense and are consistent with the evidence that I have seen to date. However, I’m still somewhat intrigued by the use of the name “Corvinus”. I believe that it was employed by Henricus Laurentii Lithovius and his son(s) Johan? This is, I presume, the basis for assuming that the 2 Henricus Laurentii’s were one and the same person, i.e. Corvinus = Raven = Black = Svart. Do you believe that this is a coincidence?

Are you aware of any further information regarding the individual named Lars from Kaarina Littoinen other than what I have set forth above? Is it simply supposition that he was the father of Henricus Laurentii Lithovius? I’m interested in anything further regarding this individual. The information that I have, i.e. he farmed in this area from 1558-1571, would seem to match exactly the time that one would expect that Henricus would have been growing up there. Thank you!

Regards,

Pete

Kimmo Kemppainen
01.06.11, 00:00
Now, Jouni gave you such a fine answer and I have little to add to it. Yes, ravens are black but that is probably just a coincidence we are talking about here. Maybe both men were dark-haired.

The story about Henricus Laurentii coming from Littoinen is obviously a family story. There are probably no documents to corroborate it. However, the big question here is when the story was first written down. If it can be dated back to the time of the first Lithovii then it is much more credible than if it was written down only recently. As you asked the question, I checked my notes and I was able to find the story in a 200 year old source. Since the Lithovii belonged to the Sursill family, it is also very possible that some early version of the Sursill manuscript mentions the story. I wish that I could check that for you but I believe that other members of this Forum might have better access to these documents.
Kimmo Kemppainen


Hi Jouni,

Your thoughts make eminent sense and are consistent with the evidence that I have seen to date. However, I’m still somewhat intrigued by the use of the name “Corvinus”. I believe that it was employed by Henricus Laurentii Lithovius and his son(s) Johan? This is, I presume, the basis for assuming that the 2 Henricus Laurentii’s were one and the same person, i.e. Corvinus = Raven = Black = Svart. Do you believe that this is a coincidence?

Are you aware of any further information regarding the individual named Lars from Kaarina Littoinen other than what I have set forth above? Is it simply supposition that he was the father of Henricus Laurentii Lithovius? I’m interested in anything further regarding this individual. The information that I have, i.e. he farmed in this area from 1558-1571, would seem to match exactly the time that one would expect that Henricus would have been growing up there. Thank you!

Regards,

Pete

Jouni Kaleva
01.06.11, 16:20
Now, Jouni gave you such a fine answer and I have little to add to it. Yes, ravens are black but that is probably just a coincidence we are talking about here. Maybe both men were dark-haired.

The story about Henricus Laurentii coming from Littoinen is obviously a family story. There are probably no documents to corroborate it. However, the big question here is when the story was first written down. If it can be dated back to the time of the first Lithovii then it is much more credible than if it was written down only recently. As you asked the question, I checked my notes and I was able to find the story in a 200 year old source. Since the Lithovii belonged to the Sursill family, it is also very possible that some early version of the Sursill manuscript mentions the story. I wish that I could check that for you but I believe that other members of this Forum might have better access to these documents.
Kimmo Kemppainen
Naturally, we have the name Lithovius, to go by, which would be latin for "from Littois". It would be quite natural that the prosperous rent-farmer Lars in Littois, who was farming the former Anna cloister lands, was making a good profit and would have given his son a good education and finally the son, Henrik, would end up in the growing parish of Liminka. Lars might have had some influence with the bishop, who made the formal nomination.

Further the family used also name Limingius ("from Liminka"). Henrik´s son Johan did use the name Corvinus. Whence, we don´t know. I also feel, this has nothing to do with the Svart names, even though ravens are black :)

olanyk
02.06.11, 10:08
Löytyykö noilta Thomas Ingoniksen ja Henrik Lithoviuksen ajalta alkuperäisasiakirjoja, Liminka-Saloinen-Pyhäjoki paikallishistorian tuntijoita?

Olen ennenkin esittänyt arvelun: "Miksi Ljungo Thomanpoika ei jäänyt kotipappilaaan" Liminkaan vaan lähti Pyhäjoen kirkkoherraksi n.1576 ? Isä lienee kuoli n. 1580 ja Henrik Lithovius tuli Limingan kirkkoherraksi N.1575. Olen esittänyt oletamuksena että Henrikin ensimmäinen vaimo olisi ollut Ljungon ja Gabrielin sisar. Olihan pappilat tuohon aikaan "merkittävää suvussa säilyvää varallisuutaa"

Muistelen että Limingassa oli joku "luostarin tila" noihin aikoihin ja joskus mietin toiko tuo Littoisista lapuotiperheen pojan Pohjoiseen?

Olen myös pohtinut oliko 1560 Thomas Ingoniksen jälkeen Limingan nimismiehenä ollut Hans Svenske, vouti Peder Hansson Svensken poika. Joka oli naimisissa Dorothea Kristersdr (Diekn) kanssa jonka ensimmäinen puolisos oli Hämeenlinnan kirjuri Henrik Juhonpoika (Merve).

Oliko tuo Saloisten kirkkoherra 1566-1581 ja nimismieskin 1571 Henricus Olai(Rödh) Ingeborg Henriksdr (Merve:n) ja Olof Jakobsson Stuben poika?

Olavi

petergmdale
03.06.11, 04:40
Many thanks Jouni, Kimmo and Olavi!

Is there any additional information available on Lars, father of Henricus Laurentii Lithovius? Does he appear for the first time in land records in 1558 or is there any record of him earlier in approximately 1540 when the first land taxation reports were produced?

I agree with Olavi that there is most likely a familial connection between Henricus Laurentii and the family of Ljungo Thomae. I suspect, like he does, that they are brothers-in-law in Henricus’ first marriage – pity there is no evidence to substantiate this conjecture. Query how Henricus would have met his Sursill wife who resided in Saloinen rather than Liminka?

I’m interested in anyone else’s thought regarding Thomas Ingonis. The Finnish Biography series states regarding Thomas that he was:

“’Hardly Ostrobothnian by origin, his patronymic Inko or Inge and his son’s give name Ljungo were unusual in the province’ (Armas Luukko 1954).” (source: http://www.kansallisbiografia.fi/paimenmuisto/?eid=2498 (http://www.kansallisbiografia.fi/paimenmuisto/?eid=2498))

Any further thoughts on Thomas Ingonis’ (or his wife Dordi’s) background/origin or where the name “Ljungo” may have originated?

Cheers,

Pete

Jouni Kaleva
05.06.11, 15:52
I agree with Olavi that there is most likely a familial connection between Henricus Laurentii and the family of Ljungo Thomae. I suspect, like he does, that they are brothers-in-law in Henricus’ first marriage – pity there is no evidence to substantiate this conjecture. Query how Henricus would have met his Sursill wife who resided in Saloinen rather than Liminka?

Pete
Henricus Laurentii must have married first time long before he came tuo Liminka, in the 1560´s I assume, since his eldest(?) son Johan was already married in th 1590´s, right.

Since the father and son, Henricus and Johan, married Sursill-sisters, it might have gone this way:

When Johan married Christina Sursill, his parents were still alive. Soon after(?), Henricus was widowed. Now it happened, that his daughter-in-law, Christina, had a sister Catharina, who just happened to be widowed about the same time. This made it natural for Henricus to marry this young widow.

Catharina was evidently living in Siikajoki at the time, abt 1590. Siikajoki is only some 20 miles away from Liminka, so this is just as close as a clergyman in Liminka would hope to find a wife of his own rank.

petergmdale
11.06.11, 11:52
Greetings,

I’ve been pondering the origin of Ljungo Thomae Limingius, his father and his wife. Ljungo is my 12th Great-Grandfather. I’m interested if anyone has thoughts regarding his father Thomas Ingonis’ origin. The Finnish Biography series states regarding Thomas that he was:

“’Hardly Ostrobothnian by origin, his patronymic Inko or Inge and his son’s give name Ljungo were unusual in the province’ (Armas Luukko 1954).” (source: http://www.kansallisbiografia.fi/paimenmuisto/?eid=2498 (http://www.kansallisbiografia.fi/paimenmuisto/?eid=2498))

I’m also curious where the name “Ljungo” may have originated – any thoughts?

Lastly, I’ve always been intrigued by the fact that the King of Sweden Kaarle IX, together with his family including six-year-old Prince Kustaa Aadolf, met with Ljungo in Finland in 1602 and that in 1614 young King Kustaa II Aadolf and his brother the Duke stayed overnight in Mantila with Margareta Nilsdotter the wife of Ljungo then widowed. I note that Margareta Nilsdotter mentioned in a 1623 letter to the King, regarding Ljungo’s translation of Swedish law into Finnish, that the Finnish translation was used in the whole country every day. (source: http://www.kaila.fi/espolin/eetu43.html (http://www.kaila.fi/espolin/eetu43.html))

How common was it for a women to be literate and able to correspond in Swedish in 1614 with the King of Sweden? This seems extraordinary. I’m very interested in any insight into the educational background of late 16th century Finnish women and what it means that Ljungo’s wife could write Swedish and host and correspond with the monarch of the period. Many thanks for your assistance.

Cheers,

Pete

Kataja
11.06.11, 12:11
Lastly, I’ve always been intrigued by the fact that the King of Sweden Kaarle IX, together with his family including six-year-old Prince Kustaa Aadolf, met with Ljungo in Finland in 1602 and that in 1614 young King Kustaa II Aadolf and his brother the Duke stayed overnight in Mantila with Margareta Nilsdotter the wife of Ljungo then widowed. I note that Margareta Nilsdotter mentioned in a 1623 letter to the King, regarding Ljungo’s translation of Swedish law into Finnish, that the Finnish translation was used in the whole country every day. (source: http://www.kaila.fi/espolin/eetu43.html (http://www.kaila.fi/espolin/eetu43.html))

How common was it for a women to be literate and able to correspond in Swedish in 1614 with the King of Sweden? This seems extraordinary. I’m very interested in any insight into the educational background of late 16th century Finnish women and what it means that Ljungo’s wife could write Swedish and host and correspond with the monarch of the period. Many thanks for your assistance.

Cheers,

Pete

Kirjoittikohan Margareta Nilsdotter kirjeen itse? Vai saneliko hän kirjeen, ja joku muu kirjoitti sen?
Marjatta

petergmdale
11.06.11, 12:40
Fair question. I do not know. However, the impression I got was that she wrote it and was interested enough in the net result of Ljungo’s Swedish to Finnish translations to correspond with the King. Notwithstanding, it appears to be the inclination of a women, Margareta Nilsdotter, who at least understands the intellectual undertakings of her husband and was, perhaps, the recipient of some education herself? Why would the King stay with her on his visit to Finland?

Jouni Kaleva
11.06.11, 13:17
Fair question. I do not know. However, the impression I got was that she wrote it and was interested enough in the net result of Ljungo’s Swedish to Finnish translations to correspond with the King. Notwithstanding, it appears to be the inclination of a women, Margareta Nilsdotter, who at least understands the intellectual undertakings of her husband and was, perhaps, the recipient of some education herself? Why would the King stay with her on his visit to Finland?
When Ljungo undertook translation of the Swedish language laws, he criticized the former translation of poor and mistaken Finnish. He furthermore was able to accurately analyze different Finnish dialects. This all in my mind makes Finnish his native tongue -whether his father had been that or not. The name Ljungo in unusual, indeed.

Ljungo was a strong supporter of the Wasa dynasty during the Club War. This makes it natural for Duke Carl in 1602 to visit him along his journey. When the nobless travelled the Osthrobotnian coast on horseback (or carriage) one day´s journey was evidently rather short. Maybe of the order of 30-50 kilometers. Thus anybody, including the roalty, would avail any accommodation. Bailiffs and priests in the larger communities would get high visitors constantly. Of course Gustaf Adolf had the previous family connection with Ljungo. Ljungos widow probably did have some education. She might easily have been literate herself. Yet is was as well possible, that she used a clerk and an interpreter in her correspondence. She may or may not have spoken Swedish - depending on her origins.

Tatupoika
22.08.11, 15:20
Hi Jouni,

... the name “Corvinus”. I believe that it was employed by Henricus Laurentii Lithovius and his son(s) Johan? This is, I presume, the basis for assuming that the 2 Henricus Laurentii’s were one and the same person, i.e. Corvinus = Raven = Black = Svart. Do you believe that this is a coincidence?


Regards,

Pete

Hi, there is a possibility that name Corvinus has something to do with the house Korvala in Ii. Further studies about house Korvala?

Jouni Kaleva
22.08.11, 17:18
Hi, there is a possibility that name Corvinus has something to do with the house Korvala in Ii. Further studies about house Korvala?
Hi

This is an old speculation, presented in an article in 1963, based on nothing but the mutual first syllable of the two names Corvinus/Korvala.

Henrik Johansson Lithovius/Limingius first appeared in Ii parish about 1620. He settled in Karhula house (karhu=bear). The additional name Corvinus has been attached to him in later documents, we have no knowledge, why. The local bailiff at the time was Sigfrid Martensson Korvala. He lived in Korvala house. (korva=ear) The name can be traced back to the early 1500´s. Later Sigfrid moved to Hiivala (hiiva=yeast) house, and thus became Henrik´s next door neighbor.
These men were good friends, but no relatives. We can only speculate on merry humor: "You are Korvala, I´ll be Corvinus".....

Henrik Lithovius later assumed the name Ahlholm, which became a real family name of his descendants. The word is Swedish, meaning Alder island. Indeed there really exists an island by that name in Finnish, Leppisaari, in Ii, close to Henrik´s house. If this was the reason for this name, we don´t really know.

petergmdale
23.08.11, 00:29
Hi Tapio & Jouni,

That information is very interesting – much appreciated. One question for Jouni, are you referring to Johan Henriksson Lithovius (Clergyman of Ii from 1620-1634) rather than a Henrik Johansson?

Cheers,

Pete

Jouni Kaleva
23.08.11, 18:26
Hi Tapio & Jouni,

That information is very interesting – much appreciated. One question for Jouni, are you referring to Johan Henriksson Lithovius (Clergyman of Ii from 1620-1634) rather than a Henrik Johansson?

Cheers,

Pete
I am referring to the son, Henrik Johansson Lithovius. He became a chaplain in Ii about 1626, while his father was the vicar. Henrik then replaced his father as the vicar in 1633. Henrik then committed a crime for which he lost his office and was forced to move to Pyhäjoki parish, where he died in 1651.

petergmdale
03.10.11, 09:57
Greetings,

I am now in the process of researching the Sinius branch of my family. I’m a descendent of Johannes Isaaci Sinius (Clergyman Laukaa from 1714-1729). I have found some interesting information about his father Isaac Hansson (Sinius) and the Sinius family in the article by Kari Bergholm (Genos 25(1954), p. 106-118) and also in the article by Arvi Ilmoniemi (Genos 33(1962), p 18-24). My questions are as follows:

1. Is there a definitive evidentiary basis to establish that Issac Hansson (Sinius) was the son of Hans Larsson (Sinius) who was the tenant proprietor of the farm Siniluoto in Saloinen?

2. Assuming that the answer to item 1 above is affirmative, is there a definitive evidentiary basis to establish that Hans Larsson (Sinius) was the son of Lars N.N. (husband of Catharina Ostensdotter Sursill)?

3. Is there any evidentiary basis to establish that either Hans Larsson or Lars N.N. (assuming they are the ancestors of Isaaci Sinius) were tenant farmers of the Siniluoto farm in Saloinen as opposed to owning the farm or being otherwise employed? What do land/tax records reveal?

4. Why is Hans Larsson (Sinius) described as a Burgher of Oulu?

5. Is there any new evidence to possibly further identify the parentage of Hans Larsson (Sinius)’s wife Anna Hansdotter?

6. Is there any evidence, other than the marriage of one of Lars (Sinius)’s daughters to a Mayor of Oulu, that the “Sinius” family was related to the Fordell family?

7. Is there any new Sinius research or information that may be enlightening?

I would be most grateful for any evidence, hypotheses, conjecture or other thoughts on the foregoing at your respective convenience. Many thanks.

Cheers,

Pete

Kimmo Kemppainen
03.10.11, 16:59
Hello Pete,
there were obviously two Hans Larssons one of whom was a burgher in Oulu and one of whom probably was a farmer on the Siniluoto farm in Saloinen. The burgher is said to have been born in Saloinen and he is the father of Isak Hansson.

In fact, I am doing research on the Siniluoto-Sinius family myself. I have so far found some interesting unpublished details of the Sinius family and the farm. However, the history of the farm is very complex. I may publish something some time.

The patronymic of Hans Larsson's wife is claimed to be Hansdotter. However, I do not not what source that is based on. It may be correct but I refuse to accept it until I have seen the source.

Kimmo Kemppainen

Greetings,

I am now in the process of researching the Sinius branch of my family. I’m a descendent of Johannes Isaaci Sinius (Clergyman Laukaa from 1714-1729). I have found some interesting information about his father Isaac Hansson (Sinius) and the Sinius family in the article by Kari Bergholm (Genos 25(1954), p. 106-118) and also in the article by Arvi Ilmoniemi (Genos 33(1962), p 18-24). My questions are as follows:

1. Is there a definitive evidentiary basis to establish that Issac Hansson (Sinius) was the son of Hans Larsson (Sinius) who was the tenant proprietor of the farm Siniluoto in Saloinen?

2. Assuming that the answer to item 1 above is affirmative, is there a definitive evidentiary basis to establish that Hans Larsson (Sinius) was the son of Lars N.N. (husband of Catharina Ostensdotter Sursill)?

3. Is there any evidentiary basis to establish that either Hans Larsson or Lars N.N. (assuming they are the ancestors of Isaaci Sinius) were tenant farmers of the Siniluoto farm in Saloinen as opposed to owning the farm or being otherwise employed? What do land/tax records reveal?

4. Why is Hans Larsson (Sinius) described as a Burgher of Oulu?

5. Is there any new evidence to possibly further identify the parentage of Hans Larsson (Sinius)’s wife Anna Hansdotter?

6. Is there any evidence, other than the marriage of one of Lars (Sinius)’s daughters to a Mayor of Oulu, that the “Sinius” family was related to the Fordell family?

7. Is there any new Sinius research or information that may be enlightening?

I would be most grateful for any evidence, hypotheses, conjecture or other thoughts on the foregoing at your respective convenience. Many thanks.

Cheers,

Pete

Jouni Kaleva
04.10.11, 17:21
Hello Pete,
there were obviously two Hans Larssons one of whom was a burgher in Oulu and one of whom probably was a farmer on the Siniluoto farm in Saloinen. The burgher is said to have been born in Saloinen and he is the father of Isak Hansson.

In fact, I am doing research on the Siniluoto-Sinius family myself. I have so far found some interesting unpublished details of the Sinius family and the farm. However, the history of the farm is very complex. I may publish something some time.

The patronymic of Hans Larsson's wife is claimed to be Hansdotter. However, I do not not what source that is based on. It may be correct but I refuse to accept it until I have seen the source.

Kimmo Kemppainen
I´m waiting for your publication with interest!

1. There was a burgher in Oulu, Hans Larsson, who died abt 1645. His wife was Anna (Hansdotter?). They had several children, Isak Hansson being one of them, maybe the eldest.
2. Hans Larsson "Siniluoto" house owner/farmer in Raahe has been making active transactions in 1654 (perhaps even 1658). His wife was Ingebor Mårtensdotter (Oulu Hellman family database, no source listed). So we definitely have two separate Hans Larssons.
3. In Sursilliana Catharina Östensdotter Sursill is first married to Lars Siniluoto, they had two children, Anna and Hans. These children must have been born before 1580, by that time Catharina was already in her second marriage. It would seem likely that out of these two, Hans #2 is the child of Catharina Sursill and Lars Siniluoto.
4. The offspring of Hans # 1 (children of Isak Hansson) later assumed the name "Sinius", derived from Siniluoto, as it is thought to have happened. Why, if they did not have any family connection to the Siniluoto house?

Just for the sake of conversation; I have an idea. Maybe they took the name from there grandmother´s family? Anna (Hansdotter?) would be the child of the couple #2, Hans Larsson Siniluoto and Ingebor Mårtensdotter!

Kimmo Kemppainen
04.10.11, 18:22
Yeah,
Hans Larsson was born in 1579 and his half brother Laurentius Mathiae was born in 1582 so father Lars must have died around 1580/81.

So far I cannot tell you if the second Hans Larsson was in any way related to the Sinii. Whether this is the case or not, another family had the Siniluoto farm by the end of the 17th century.

Kimmo Kemppainen


I´m waiting for your publication with interest!

1. There was a burgher in Oulu, Hans Larsson, who died abt 1645. His wife was Anna (Hansdotter?). They had several children, Isak Hansson being one of them, maybe the eldest.
2. Hans Larsson "Siniluoto" house owner/farmer in Raahe has been making active transactions in 1654 (perhaps even 1658). His wife was Ingebor Mårtensdotter (Oulu Hellman family database, no source listed). So we definitely have two separate Hans Larssons.
3. In Sursilliana Catharina Östensdotter Sursill is first married to Lars Siniluoto, they had two children, Anna and Hans. These children must have been born before 1580, by that time Catharina was already in her second marriage. It would seem likely that out of these two, Hans #2 is the child of Catharina Sursill and Lars Siniluoto.
4. The offspring of Hans # 1 (children of Isak Hansson) later assumed the name "Sinius", derived from Siniluoto, as it is thought to have happened. Why, if they did not have any family connection to the Siniluoto house?

Just for the sake of conversation; I have an idea. Maybe they took the name from there grandmother´s family? Anna (Hansdotter?) would be the child of the couple #2, Hans Larsson Siniluoto and Ingebor Mårtensdotter!

Jouni Kaleva
04.10.11, 18:45
Yeah,
Hans Larsson was born in 1579

Kimmo Kemppainen
Where does this date come from?

Kimmo Kemppainen
04.10.11, 19:09
It comes from a military source, where burghers and their male servants are listed.
Kimmo Kemppainen

Where does this date come from?

petergmdale
04.10.11, 22:11
Greetings,

Many thanks for the information. However, I would like to try and clarify a few things.

1. Is it fair to say, based on the foregoing, that Hans Larsson, Burgher of Oulu and father of Isak Hansson Sinius, was not the son of Lars N.N. and Catharina Ostensdotter Sursill?

2. If the answer to item #1 is affirmative, is there any evidence or speculation regarding the parentage of Hans Larsson (Burgher and father of Isak Hansson Sinius)?

3. Is it established that the daughter of Lars N.N. and Catharina Ostensdotter Sursill named Anna is indeed the women who married Josephus Henrici Lithovius (Clergyman of Liminka 1615-1648)?

4. Does Genealogia Sursilliana state that Isak Hansson Sinius’ father Hans Larsson Sinius was the son of Catharina Ostensdotter Sursill. If so, is it assumed to be in error?

Many thanks.

Cheers,

Pete

Kimmo Kemppainen
04.10.11, 22:58
I would say the opposite,
Hans Larsson, burgher of Oulu and the father of Isak Hansson Sinius was indeed the son of Lars and Catharina Östensdotter Sursill as far as we know. There is nothing to refute what the Genealogia Sursilliana says. Thus, the Sinii are as Sursill as they come.

We have both traditional Sursill information and information that is derived from historical sources. The latter does not corroborate everything that the former states but there is no significant conflict, either.
Kimmo Kemppainen

Greetings,

Many thanks for the information. However, I would like to try and clarify a few things.

1. Is it fair to say, based on the foregoing, that Hans Larsson, Burgher of Oulu and father of Isak Hansson Sinius, was not the son of Lars N.N. and Catharina Ostensdotter Sursill?

2. If the answer to item #1 is affirmative, is there any evidence or speculation regarding the parentage of Hans Larsson (Burgher and father of Isak Hansson Sinius)?

3. Is it established that the daughter of Lars N.N. and Catharina Ostensdotter Sursill named Anna is indeed the women who married Josephus Henrici Lithovius (Clergyman of Liminka 1615-1648)?

4. Does Genealogia Sursilliana state that Isak Hansson Sinius’ father Hans Larsson Sinius was the son of Catharina Ostensdotter Sursill. If so, is it assumed to be in error?

Many thanks.

Cheers,

Pete

petergmdale
04.10.11, 23:12
Thanks Kimmo, I was confused. I appreciate the clarification. Kiitos!

Cheers,

Pete

petergmdale
05.10.11, 10:18
Greetings,

I have given some thought to the past few posts and have a number of additional questions:

1. What evidence exists to establish that Lars N.N. (husband of Catharina Ostensdotter Sursill and father of Hans Larsson burgher of Oulu) was a tenant farmer of Siniluoto, Saloinen? Is this simply reverse engineered from the Latinized surname adopted by Hans Larsson’s son Isak Hansson Sinius and his progeny?

2. Is there any evidentiary record that provides any additional insight into the life, occupation, abode, etc. of Lars N.N. – husband of C. O. Sursill? I am wondering if there is a blending of the 2 Hans Larssonss and an attribution of Siniluoto to Lars N.N.? What I am trying to reconcile is the fact that C. O. Sursill’s children and grandchildren seemed to occupy rather elevated positions of power/authority which, in my uninformed opinion, seems to be inconsistent with Lars N.N. being a tenant farmer given the class hierarchy of the time. C. O. Sursill’s subsequent 2 husbands seem to be rather accomplished and this would appear counter-intuitive, i.e. Lars N. N. would be lower rather than higher, as would be expected, on the social pecking order as the first husband?

3. I am trying to understand what it means to be a “Burgher” in Oulu as Hans Larsson has been described. I understand, from a technical Riksdag perspective, the import of being a Burgher. However, I am curious if the historical record has provided any complexion or other explanation as to what Hans Larsson actually did for an occupation in Oulu, i.e. did you import/export furs, own ships, etc.?

4. Lastly, I keep coming back to the thought that I believe the Sursill, Fordell and Sinius families are very closely intertwined and likely had connections on both sides of the Gulf of Bothnia. I wonder whether Lars N.N. was actually from the Swedish side of the Gulf as opposed to the Finnish side like the Sursill and Fordell families?

I welcome any/all evidence, conjecture and suppositions regarding the foregoing. Kiitos!

Cheers,

Pete

mika68
05.10.11, 11:13
Was curate of Kemijärvi Esaias Mansvetusson Fellman's wife Anna Hansdotter (1643-20.1.1703 Kemijärvi) Hans Larsson Siniluoto-Sinius's (1582-1645) daughter?

Kimmo Kemppainen
05.10.11, 12:35
The early part of Genealogia Sursilliana is not based on documents but on the things that people told. Many of these people were grandchildren of the Sursill sisters. This is why we may have some trouble corroborating every piece of information. Yet, the story about the Sinius family coming from Saloinen is probably true. I hope to provide some further corroboration in the future.

Sometimes sons of peasants did rise in societal hierachy. The Siniluoto sons may have had the advantage of bilingualism. I don't know where you got the idea that father Lars was a tenant farmer.

I don't know what kind of merchandise Hans Larsson dealt in.
Kimmo Kemppainen

Greetings,

I have given some thought to the past few posts and have a number of additional questions:

1. What evidence exists to establish that Lars N.N. (husband of Catharina Ostensdotter Sursill and father of Hans Larsson burgher of Oulu) was a tenant farmer of Siniluoto, Saloinen? Is this simply reverse engineered from the Latinized surname adopted by Hans Larsson’s son Isak Hansson Sinius and his progeny?

2. Is there any evidentiary record that provides any additional insight into the life, occupation, abode, etc. of Lars N.N. – husband of C. O. Sursill? I am wondering if there is a blending of the 2 Hans Larssonss and an attribution of Siniluoto to Lars N.N.? What I am trying to reconcile is the fact that C. O. Sursill’s children and grandchildren seemed to occupy rather elevated positions of power/authority which, in my uninformed opinion, seems to be inconsistent with Lars N.N. being a tenant farmer given the class hierarchy of the time. C. O. Sursill’s subsequent 2 husbands seem to be rather accomplished and this would appear counter-intuitive, i.e. Lars N. N. would be lower rather than higher, as would be expected, on the social pecking order as the first husband?

3. I am trying to understand what it means to be a “Burgher” in Oulu as Hans Larsson has been described. I understand, from a technical Riksdag perspective, the import of being a Burgher. However, I am curious if the historical record has provided any complexion or other explanation as to what Hans Larsson actually did for an occupation in Oulu, i.e. did you import/export furs, own ships, etc.?

4. Lastly, I keep coming back to the thought that I believe the Sursill, Fordell and Sinius families are very closely intertwined and likely had connections on both sides of the Gulf of Bothnia. I wonder whether Lars N.N. was actually from the Swedish side of the Gulf as opposed to the Finnish side like the Sursill and Fordell families?

I welcome any/all evidence, conjecture and suppositions regarding the foregoing. Kiitos!

Cheers,

Pete

petergmdale
05.10.11, 21:30
Thanks Kimmo. I have seen the reference to Lars N.N. being a tenant farmer in Siniluoto in other online posts. However, these are unsourced. Hence my question whether this is simply attribution to Lars N.N. as a result of the adopted name ‘Sinius’ by his descendents. What I am wondering is whether he may have resided in Saloinen with C. O. Sursill et. al. but not, in fact, have been a farmer but had some other occupation.

Cheers,

Pete

Kimmo Kemppainen
05.10.11, 22:56
As you may be able to read from the picture that shows one of the earliest Sursilliana manuscripts, it is said that Catharina Östensdotter "fick först en bonde Lars", literally, "got first a peasant Lars".

http://www.genealogia.fi/genos/33/33_18.htm

Kimmo Kemppainen


Thanks Kimmo. I have seen the reference to Lars N.N. being a tenant farmer in Siniluoto in other online posts. However, these are unsourced. Hence my question whether this is simply attribution to Lars N.N. as a result of the adopted name ‘Sinius’ by his descendents. What I am wondering is whether he may have resided in Saloinen with C. O. Sursill et. al. but not, in fact, have been a farmer but had some other occupation.

Cheers,

Pete

petergmdale
24.05.15, 10:39
Greetings,

Just checking in to see if there has been any progress or new information with respect to the Sinius family in the past few years. I’d be most grateful for any update or additional information. Many thanks.

Cheers,

Pete